Recently, I've been on a Spiderweb Software binge and played the first two Avernum games back-to-back. They were okay, but the lifeless art and the extreme length of the games made playing through these two titles a bit of a struggle. The only thing that drove me on was the thought of coming across vast improvements in later installments in the Spiderweb Software library.

i tried Geneforge 1 recently and it hit the spot quite nicely. The player character has a walking animation! I can now point and click at certain objects such as chests instead of having to use the "look" function, whoa! That was just in the first five minutes. I didn't want to continue on though.

I'm slightly worried that I won't appreciate the rest of the Avernum series as much in light of these major (in my eyes) improvements. And yet, I feel I must play through these games in order, seeing as I am somewhat of a purist when it comes to this pastime (I draw the line at Exile though). Does anyone else feel this way? Maybe the rest of the Avernum series lifted its game to match what is seen in Geneforge? Am I simply over-thinking things??

*Head begins to pulsate, an explosion is imminent*

Avernum 3 uses the same engine as Avernum 1 and 2 (with minor improvements), but Avernum 4 and onwards have an updated engine that you will probably like. They were actually made AFTER the Geneforge games so they're even more recent (or at least, they were made after Geneforge 1-3, not sure about Geneforge 4 and 5).

I completely understand wanting to play through in order though, so basically the question is whether you can stand one more game with the old engine. Avernum 3 is the last of the "old-school" ones. It also provides a bigger variety in its setting than the first two games though, so even with the same engine you may find it refreshingly different.

Having said all that, I actually found Avernum 4 to be a bit disappointing after playing the original trilogy... Avernum 4 no longer has the "world map", which I missed. In order to make everything match the scale of the original games (it does still take place in Avernum, after all), I felt the game got a little too big... it's not quite big enough to convey the sense of scale I got from the original trilogy, but too big to play entirely in the "zoomed in" view. I felt there was content there just for the sake of content, rather than for the actual pacing of the game. But, it's got mouse support, crisper graphics, and much more intuitive controls. Also I hear that Avernum 5 and 6, which I have not played yet, are big improvements over 4.

Also there are no more secret doors. I missed those.

Anyway, enough rambling. The point is that after Avernum 3, you'll find the series makes a jump to something much more like the Geneforge series, so if you can get through that one you'll be able to play the rest in order without worrying about the old engine.

None of the Avernum games have character walking animations (well Escape from The Pit does), so if that is essential you won't be happy with the series.

Someone claimed the lack of character animations was to simulate moving miniatures around a tabletop map. I think it was to save time & effort..

You're probably right... it's all made by one man, after all. In fact I think he's written about the limitations in the art for his games on his blog (essentially, he doesn't have the budget to hire artists for fancy graphics, so he just sticks to simple graphics).

Thanks for the helpful responses. I think I'll keep Geneforge 1 on the backburner while I start Avernum 3. The lack of walking animations doesn't bother me as much as my previous post made it out to be. I just found it so refreshing to see it in Geneforge after at least a hundred hours worth of Avernum.

By the way, the forums for the Spiderweb games are pretty quiet everywhere except in their own habitat. Does the lack of sophisticated graphics bother people that much? I know I've complained a bit in other posts I've made, but I still played through to the end despite having plenty of big budget titles lying around. That's gotta mean something.

It's probably more to do Spiderweb games becoming available for other digital vendors only in recent years (despite spiderweb being around for almost 20 years now), thus it's most dedicated fanbase frequents the official forums as they've done for past 20 years. Obviously Spiderweb games never before cartered mainstream audience and are hard, long, have ton of text and their graphics aim for functionality rather than eye candy.

Things are obviously now changing with Avadon and remade Avernum series as those are, for better or worse, being streamlined and made more accessible for wider audience (I would not go as far as saying them cartering the mainstream, and I doubt they ever will be).

You seem to be neutral towards the recent trend in Spiderweb games. Have you tried the latest titles yet?

While I do own Avadon (from several places actually :-p), I haven't played it or A:EftP. My observation is based on looking LP's of both and reading about the games and comparing it what I've played so far (GF1-3, A 1-3, demo of Nethergate Ressurrection. Exile games too way back when.). I'll have to play games my self before I can say if changes, from my viewpoint, are for better or worse.

These games are fucking trash. I just wasted 15 hours on Geneforge 1. You get to the last boss he's impossible. His creations just swarm you and gang bang you and your party. On top of that, the mage deals enough damage per round to kill me and party in 2 hits. Ive read up on this so called developer. All of his games are remakes of everything. He makes 5 trash games that 20% of players can beat and the other 80% people cant get past the game without a power build. If you don't follow his hidden stat guide you are fucked.

This guy Vogel hasn't made an honest game since he started. If the game was possible to beat and reasonable I would say ok. But his graphics don't say much. Indie rpgs, what a laugh.

I disagree with everything in your post. I imagine most people here do as well. I had no problems playing these games without a guide, and certainly didn't find the final boss of Geneforge 1 to be impossible to beat. I've only heard of one other person having as much trouble with Generfore 1 as you did, unless that was also you. Where are you getting this 80% statistic?

And while Jeff Vogel has remade his games a few times, most of them are original: Avernum 1-5, Geneforge 1-5, Avadon and Nethergate are all distinct games, the only thing in common being some art assets, game engines, and the design of the RPG system. Content-wise, those are all completely distinct. So I have it at 12 original games (plus a few remakes), far off of your claim of zero.

He even makes a blog and talks about what other rpg companies should do. He cant spend the money on sounds and basic upgrades for his own games yet pretends to give advice.
Who the fuck cares what he thinks? He doesn't belong on good old games! We want fallout back!

I sense great anger in you. But not any actual reasoned arguments. If you don't like the games, that's fine, but your claim that games without music or sound effects are automatically bad are completely ridiculous. Interactive fiction doesn't even have graphics, but can still be just as compelling and interesting as the latest big-budget game.

Also I don't know why you are going on about Fallout 1 and 2 being removed from GOG's catalog... that was because GOG lost the license to sell them when the IP rights transferred from Interplay to Bethesda. It had nothing to do with a judgment of the quality of the games. And you're the first person I've ever heard try to argue that they're the only good turn-based games ever made. Seriously? What about roguelikes, and classic RPGs like the Ultimas, and Might and Magic? Or strategy games like Master of Orion. Or hell, what about Civilization?

GoodOldJack- Yowch!

I'm amused that you state these games have no content and then go on about 50-60 hours of playtime and 700 pages of text. This is content- whether or not you appreciate it.

As far as difficulty is concerned...Geneforge 1 & 3 are the easiest games of the series. Based on your rabid rants about Geneforge 1, don't ever consider playing Geneforge 5 (which is ridiculously difficult) unless you want to be institutionalized. At least you live in Canada where most people are still treated well.

*removed all hate and missinformation*

If you're meaning the end boss of GF1, you can deal with him in numerous ways, including killing him without a fight so there...

As for the garpage you spout about the content, as pointed above, you yourself disprove your lies. Game has more content than most AAA titles out there. You may not like the content or the way it's delivered, but it's there.