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eVinceW21: The game just let's you PLAY. Which is - sadly - woefully unlike many modern games.
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Filben: So true. I just realise that by playing Fallout New Vegas. And having played all Bethesda titles since Morrowind it's often a pain in the ass. I feel like I spend half the time in inventories and interface-screens instead of play. Some might like this and find this as part of "gameplay". But I don't. And I don't like it.
That in particular has been a thing with role playing games for a while, but it's only gotten worse as of late. And I agree, it's a pain in the arse and out of control.

I think the problem lies with the "everything and the kitchen sink" design mentality games have adopted. Now that they are capable of throwing mountains of stuff at players, they never bother to consider that they even should. If you're gonna have mountains of equipment you have to frick'n *do* something with it all yet most of it amounts to a mountain of garbage you pawn off to vendors for pennies.

Dragon Age, Skyrim, Dragon's Dogma and about a dozen other recent RPGs suffer this same problem. Ironically, the games themselves have become simpler in terms of game mechanics but seem to compensate with the vast amount of fluff they can throw around. All it amounts to is a @#$%ton of micromanagement fapping about for the player to mess with.

People like to think it's some adorable novelty than you can pick up and haul around dining utensils in Elder Scrolls. I just think it's a waste of everyone's time. I once got chastised for thinking this way. Apparently all that messing around is an essential part of the RPG experience.

I would rather slay dragons, fight hordes of ogres or infiltrate wizard towers but no ... let's spend 3/4 of our fantasy adventure cataloging our warehouse inventory and comparing spreadsheets.
Post edited November 13, 2014 by eVinceW21
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Sufyan: Let me guess, you're trying to sneak by walking while standing upright. All AI enemies, augmented or not, can barely see you if you are crouching. Even better, crouch-walking is completely silent. Compare this to walking upright which makes noise, is slower than crouch-walking and makes enemies spot you at relatively great distances.

If you start crouching all the time and try not to make any noise you will find that the AI is consistently oblivious and predictable.
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Belsirk: Nope, I sneak crouched and moving by the shadows reaching their backs with baston or rod. The problem: suddenly some enemies appears /spawns behind you and very closed, you don't has time even to hear their footsteps (This begin to happens after you join to the terrorist and in certain mission). And other times, were an enmie didn't see you, one MORE FAR is able to see you. The best example is with the Hell kitchen, were they try to sneak you with the bugglar, if you use one entrance and try leaving by the other one, they suddenly appear some meter ahead of you (And more funny, as their are manny you can't pass by their side cloaked).

I already learn the limitation of the IA in the enemies from the firsts levels, and suddenly everything change with random units. if that happened with the augs, robots or special trops, would be OK with the history, but happens even with the basic soldier, and not always. That is why, I see the AI as inconsistent.

P.d. another odd thing, a hit with the baston when the enemie already hostile don't knock them, I can't find any reference in the manual about the extra damage bonus by sneaking them (although I could missed the line). More annoying, if you don't hit exactly where the game wants you don't knock them, even with the rod ( with the Augs that is ok)
I don't think there is a single enemy AI spawn in the entire game. What happens in the example you mentioned is that all your allies turn against you and are scripted to rush upstairs (unless they are dead or unconcious...). All characters exist in the game world from the beginning of the level, they are not generated/spawned to ambush you.

As for the AI being able to spot you, it is somewhat dependent on your difficulty setting. On the most difficult setting you can appear directly in their field of view for about a second and it only makes them suspicious but not certain that they have actually seen you. So long as you have some solid geometry to hide behind, you can avoid ANYONE in this game. The AI is very consistent and predictable, I think you're mistaken. Also, if it appears impossible to sneak past a group of enemies, there is almost certainly another path to bypass them. It takes multiple playthroughs to find all the places you can crawl into!

About stealth attacks, there is a bonus damage multiplier though it may work a little differently than you would expect. The AI has three modes of alertness, ranging from (using my own words) patrolling, suspicious/alert and in combat/searching. Enemies switch modes from patrolling to alert if they hear a noise made by the player, if they spot the player but haven't positively identified you yet and perhaps a few more instances that escape my memory for now. They will switch from alert to in-combat if they hear gunfire and explosions, are attacked or if they see you long enough to realise who you are. While they are alert or in combat, you get no damage bonus. If they are still patrolling with their weapons holstered or otherwise appearing relaxed, you get a damage multiplier. I believe it is a 10x multiplier, so that 6 damage baton attack becomes 60 damage which is enough to knock out most enemies in the game. Remember though, you only get this bonus if they are not alerted to your presence, so you will need to hit them in the back, the easiest part of the body to hit. Don't aim for the head because if you miss you will only alert them and your baton will only irritate them for 6 damage while they swing around and put a 10mm pistol round through your face.
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Sufyan: I don't think there is a single enemy AI spawn in the entire game. What happens in the example you mentioned is that all your allies turn against you and are scripted to rush upstairs (unless they are dead or unconcious...). All characters exist in the game world from the beginning of the level, they are not generated/spawned to ambush you.
I totally (and respectfully) disagree with you, the Hell Kitchen is clearly an example where the enemies SPAWN near to your location, not one but two times. I already load those scenes so many times that I'm very sure of it. Though, is true, in this case you got the warning that is going to happens by radio.
But I have my frustration as soon as you left them behind in one of the entrances, another group is going to spawn in other entrance as you tried to flee by that direction, and due the collision design, there are so many guards that you can't just pass between them.


You can try to experiment with that if you has a save point near to the events, got the warning, left one group behind, or just don't move by different time periods, once you get a certain place (an trigger zone) the enemies will spawn. They are not the ones already existing cops in the scene.

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Sufyan: . The AI is very consistent and predictable, I think you're mistaken. Also, if it appears impossible to sneak past a group of enemies, there is almost certainly another path to bypass them. It takes multiple playthroughs to find all the places you can crawl into!
My problem is that sometimes some enemies have bigger cones of vision than other without explanation, if the first one closest to me didn't see me but one in the same direction but more far see me something is wrong with the AI scripting. And again, in certain levels enemies suddenly come from paths that I already clean.

Anyway, the words of Fiben are true. This game is a classic, as I didn't played in the moment I can't see the game with the same eyes than you or others who did it.

P.d. I personally don't like how the "sneak attack" work on this game, but is a minor issue and thanks by explaining it.
P.d.2. Personally, if the AI don't learn from you, is not more than a competent AI (But that is my opinion and I only know of one game wasting development resources trying to do it, and some masters thesis adapting some games), though maybe the alien from "Alien Isolation" could be similar but I need to play it first.
It sounds like you've already made up your mind that you don't like this game. If it's not your thing then it's not your thing. Everyone likes different things. If you don't like cyberpunk, then a cyberpunk game isn't going to appeal to you. I'll address some of your points and explain why those of us who like it love it and maybe you'll give it another go or maybe you won't. It's up to you.

And that is why those of us who like this game love it: everything is up to you, the player. It's a game that respects the player's choices. You can play the game however you want and build whatever character you want. JC is a blank slate and the player is the one who gives him personality. There's also a lot to explore - which is also up to the player. And to top it off, the player's actions feel important. Our actions as the player affects NPC lives. Not just in terms of the broader plot, but in the many optional subplots. The love and care that the developers put into the game is obvious in the attention to detail. There are many small things the player can do without thinking twice about that affect later interactions. There are many hidden secrets that players might not discover until their fifth, sixth, seventh playthrough, and many more they might never discover.

Maybe a clear-cut example of the choices available to the player will help.

Example: First mission
You need to get into the Statue of Liberty. There are two entrances: the front, through a door and turrets, or the back by stacking crates.

Say you want to go through the front. You can storm the front and lure the enemy to open the door for you. You can lockpick the door. You can hack the computer to open the door. You can upgrade your computer skill again to hack the computer to open the door and convert the turret to your side. You can explore and find the login to the computer to open the door while also converting the turret. You can find the informant and get a key to open the door.

But you need to reach the front door first. The front is guarded by humans, a bot and a turret. How you make it there is up you. You can sneak around all the humans, bot and camera. You can blow the bot up with the rocket launcher your brother gave you. You can booby trap the bot's path with some TNT and blow it up with your pistol. You can kill the humans and avoid the bot. How do you kill the humans? You can take out the humans with your sniper rifle, pistol or tranquilisers. You can sneak up behind the humans and take them out like a ninja. You can monitor their patrol routes and ambush them when they're alone. You can rig some TNT in an area and lure a group of them there together. You can get the humans' attention and lure them into your allies. You can lure your brother out to the front door so he can kill everyone for you.

So many options just to get through your first door.

Example: First mission continues
So you're through the front door. Now what do you do? You learn that one of your soldiers has been captured and is locked in a nearby holding cell. The passage there is trapped with laser tripwires. What do you do?

You can find a back way through the ventilation system. Some locked doors bar your way. You can pick the locks or use a grenade you found earlier to blow it up. You can also use your rocket launcher on the door if your heart desires. Explosives will attract attention. You can deal with it however you like.

You can use a multitool to disable the lasers. You can throw your grenade to blow up the lasers. You can throw some nearby TNT at the lasers. You can blow the lasers up with your rocket. You can rig the passage with your grenade and cross the lasers to attract the attention of the guards, run back to a hiding spot and let them blow themselves up on your grenade. You can do the same thing with TNT to save your grenade. You can blow the enemies up with rockets. You can just run through the lasers and take everyone out. You can run through the lasers and withdraw to a better vantage point and them them out one by one when they come searching for you. You can attract their attention some other way without triggering the lasers. You can lure them into the lobby and set off the poison gas. You can lure them into the turrets you hacked. You can lure your brother in here to kill them all.

And once you've solved this problem, you've got another turret and locked cell door to deal with before you can save your soldier. Then, when you save your soldier, he wants a weapon so he can fight, and you have another decision to make.

You feel awesome when you try something you didn't think to do last time and it works..



The others have already addressed most of your points, so I'll clear up a few things.

Killing
The game doesn't encourage or discourage killing. Some characters encourage killing while other characters discourage killing, but the choice is ultimately left to the player. You can play however you want. The non-lethal route is harder, but that's what makes why choosing to go non-lethal is a meaningful moral decision. In contrast, the 3rd game in the series, DXHR, gave the non-lethal route no real downsides, and so there's never really a reason to kill anyone in that game. I feel like that makes the decision not to kill much less meaningful.

Tranquiliser darts take a few seconds to work, but they do work. The game even shows human enemies visibly and audibly reacting to the poison. Some enemies, particularly later on, require more than one dart.

Skills
Sure, with certain play styles you don't ever need to use a weapon. That doesn't mean that the weapon skills are useless. They're there as a choice: if you want to play a combat character then you can do that. It's like saying that the magic skills in Skyrim are useless because you can beat the game as an archer.

And if you decide to engage in combat, then the weapons you specialise in change the flavour of the game. There's a big difference in how you play if you use rifles vs low-tech, for example, Even pistols play somewhat differently to rifles.

Skills like medicine, swimming and environmental training are also useful depending on your play style. The people who say they are useless suffer from the same bias described above: just because they enjoy playing in a certain way that doesn't use those skills, they forget that other players might want to play differently.

Environmental training is actually the most versatile out of all the skills. It's cheap and makes the equipment you can wear better than their augmentation counterparts. But like in any game with meaningful choices, there's a downside: equipment is consumable, in limited supply and takes up inventory space. I think you'll appreciate that these downsides are a good thing because your complaint that the weapon skills appeared useless suggests that you like meaningful choices. If environmental training was absolutely better than its aug counterparts then that would make the augs useless. Another feature of environmental training is that the equipment effects stack with the augs, meaning you can choose both options.

The players who say that medicine is useless probably don't play using a close quarters combat style. Maybe they stealth or they snipe or they ninja. If you never get hit then you never need to heal. But if you do need healing, then medkits are important earlier on. Later on, when you get access to the healing aug, you might still prefer to stick with medkits because the aug has downsides like taking up a slot, energy consumption and you might want to use your upgrade canisters on other augs instead. It remains a meaningful choice.

Swimming is a cheap skill, and the cost reflects its utility. Sure, it's not as useful as some other skills, but for what you invest into it, it's a meaningful choice. A good swimming ability lets you save space on rebreathers and lets you swim faster when you do enter the water. It's useful if you want to explore and in some cases it provides an alternate route to your destination. Again, it's all about the player's choice.



Vince and FIlben, you've pointed out something I never realised before. I didn't enjoy New Vegas as much as Fallout 3 and always had trouble putting my finger on why. It makes so much sense now. In Fallout 3 I got to spend most of my time exploring. In New Vegas I spent so much time trying to make sure I had all the right gear.
Post edited December 07, 2014 by ForgottenTrope
There's not a single problem in Deus Ex that can't be solved by aiming a GEP Gun at it.
Because it has a great sense of storytelling, for the most part, fairly solid voice acting, a new and very flexible level of customization, and nearly every single quest in the game has multiple options available to complete it, with some quests being completely safe to ignore completely.

As to difficulties even getting the game to work, I've heard that over the years, but for the most part, it's one of the most stable games ever made, (I've been installing and reinstalling since launch of it) and it does *a lot* with a pretty low hardware requirement that games with higher hardware requirements weren't at the time, even capable of.

By the way; your problem with the tranq darts is because your aiming at the body with them. A head hit on most difficulty modes for most human enemies is an instant knockout. But it also often requires a slower, sneakier approach then you've probably been using, and likely, a fair amount of crouching or watching patrol routes. Even the few that *might* stay concious a bit from a head hit, such as drop noticably faster. The only exceptions I can think of are all augmented characters (And only 3 total in the game at that), and even then the tranq gun is useful for slowing them down or interupting their ability to shoot.

But then again, I usually do a no kill run. I get the chance to notice these things, something a lot of people trying for a more violent approach may not get the chance to.
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metaslugx: There's not a single problem in Deus Ex that can't be solved by aiming a GEP Gun at it.
Like this!
This question I also ask myself more and more. I play it the first time these days and I wouldn't had expect it being that bad - or better: not that good that it's made from all sides permanently. I'm underwhelmed. Not because of the graphics, I can stand the old clunky style. It's the terrible AI, the level design, the gameplay. Here is my soonest frustration experience with DE:
I've wasted hours to find out there's no escaping possible at Battery Park. Before that I liked how one can kill that bitch Navarre and save Lebedev from her harhar! And after that bombing the Black Men in Pauls apartment away, fun! :) I like how the Unatco troops have character anyhow, they're not just the typical cannon fodder. But there were also mentioned game problems and weak situations.
And then Battery Park... I had all troops killed, all Mechs destroyed or disabled, but then invisible walls and a Gunther who's "eating" all my ammo wtf... poor dead end. Sure, DE is not the only game which solved situations this (bad) way, I've seen such dead ends in other games too. But this is Deus Ex: "Heeey it's awesome Deus Ex! Best game ever blablabla", you know what I mean right?
This level is just one of many points why I can't rate DE not that good, actually my rating is dropping. I've expected more, the game can't cash in what it has promised over the years to me (in all-time-favourite-rankings, fora like this one, podcasts, tellings, magazines etc.) I'm disappointed.
Anyway, I'm gonna play on through this classic, because it has it's strong moments sometimes and I'm curious what is yet to come. But presumably I'll never look back to it. Needless to say it gets no 5 stars from me. A 3.5 is good enough which makes barely a 4 (by now) here on GOG.
Post edited October 16, 2016 by gamefood
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gamefood: This question I also ask myself more and more. I play it the first time these days and I wouldn't had expect it being that bad - or better: not that good that it's made from all sides permanently. I'm underwhelmed. Not because of the graphics, I can stand the old clunky style. It's the terrible AI, the level design, the gameplay. Here is my soonest frustration experience with DE:
I've wasted hours to find out there's no escaping possible at Battery Park. Before that I liked how one can kill that bitch Navarre and save Lebedev from her harhar! And after that bombing the Black Men in Pauls apartment away, fun! :) I like how the Unatco troops have character anyhow, they're not just the typical cannon fodder. But there were also mentioned game problems and weak situations.
And then Battery Park... I had all troops killed, all Mechs destroyed or disabled, but then invisible walls and a Gunther who's "eating" all my ammo wtf... poor dead end. Sure, DE is not the only game which solved situations this (bad) way, I've seen such dead ends in other games too. But this is Deus Ex: "Heeey it's awesome Deus Ex! Best game ever blablabla", you know what I mean right?
This level is just one of many points why I can't rate DE not that good, actually my rating is dropping. I've expected more, the game can't cash in what it has promised over the years to me (in all-time-favourite-rankings, fora like this one, podcasts, tellings, magazines etc.) I'm disappointed.
Anyway, I'm gonna play on through this classic, because it has it's strong moments sometimes and I'm curious what is yet to come. But presumably I'll never look back to it. Needless to say it gets no 5 stars from me. A 3.5 is good enough which makes barely a 4 (by now) here on GOG.
I call bullshit on this up until the final score which is realistic, unlike the rest of the post:

1. It is very unlikely that a player would survive this insane difficulty spike that is designed to kill the player. While technically possible, you're not supposed to survive, which means you've gone through unusual effort to win the fight. God mode often?

2. This is just one moment in a long game. Are you sure you want to say this ruins it for you? Bullshit. The developer already allowed you about 30 minutes of optional gameplay leading up to this end point, if you "die" at any point during the manhunt the story progresses. You made it through all the OPTIONAL content and when you reach the end point of that chapter, you're so peeved that it ended that you're going to thrash the whole game for it? What about the fact that you can't infuse your crossbow with the spirit of your great-great-grandfather? Hey, the developers lied about this being a game about player choice and freedom!

Nope. No. You don't do that. Intellectually dishonest.
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Sufyan: [...]
No bullshit, my opinion. If bullshit I'd have marked it somehow as bullshit. All other points of you I won't comment
because usually I don't discuss with people who don't know the difference / don't read the post and/or don't refer to it / are respectless / are insulting / can't stand other opinions.

"Congratulations", you failed most of my filters.
Post edited October 18, 2016 by gamefood