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Defender's QuestDefender's Quest LINUX version.(43 posts)(43 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 18, 2014
high rated
So GOG is adding Linux support soon, and we'd be more than happy to add the Linux version of Defender's Quest, the same one we have everywhere else.

However, we got a LOT of criticism when we first launched this game because it used to rely on Adobe AIR. We've since been able to compile it in a way that just packages up AIR dependencies as local dll files, so the user doesn't actually have to install AIR themselves.

That's not the case with the Linux version, because Adobe dropped support for AIR on Linux before they introduced that special compiling feature. So Linux users will have to install Adobe AIR to run DQ, which is a pain.

Fortunately, my elite Linux guru has written a really handy little script that auto-installs AIR and just *deals with all the crap* (and there's a lot of crap) but GOG users might still have reservations about installing AIR, and I'm afraid of tanking our review score.

So what say you, community? Will you Linux users tolerate the presence or AIR (with our handy auto-install script), or is it better we just don't release the Linux version of DQ on GOG?
Post edited March 18, 2014 by larsiusprime
Posted March 18, 2014
I would say release it, but maybe mention it on the store page
Posted March 19, 2014
Definitely release it but the tolerance will depend on the way you will do it.
If you find a self-contained, just for the game, way for AIR that does not install it systemwide then I dont think anyone will have a problem. None likes AIR though..
For more opinions I would suggest asking the same question in Linux forums rather than GoG forums.
Post edited March 19, 2014 by mastorak
Posted March 19, 2014
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mastorak: Definitely release it but the tolerance will depend on the way you will do it.
If you find a self-contained, just for the game, way for AIR that does not install it systemwide then I dont think anyone will have a problem. None likes AIR though..
For more opinions I would suggest asking the same question in Linux forums rather than GoG forums.
There's just no way to make it self-contained on Linux. It's a system-wide install or nothing.

So... do I release a Linux build on GOG, and try to be real up-front about it and say "Hey, warning: on LINUX ONLY, this comes with AIR, that's the only way we could get it to run. If you don't like that, don't do it" ? I feel like I could really open ourselves up to review-score trashing from people who don't understand or don't take time to read the store page and get mad about it.
Posted March 21, 2014
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larsiusprime: So... do I release a Linux build on GOG, and try to be real up-front about it and say "Hey, warning: on LINUX ONLY, this comes with AIR, that's the only way we could get it to run. If you don't like that, don't do it" ? I feel like I could really open ourselves up to review-score trashing from people who don't understand or don't take time to read the store page and get mad about it.
It's actually a common practice on GOG to inform users of technical and gameplay limitations on the gamecard.
Here's an old compilation of notices. Here's a newer game with a particularly nasty one - note the absence of complaints. Just make sure (1) GOG doesn't forget to blame Adobe in the notice and (2) it's made clear how to get rid of air once the (potentially newbie) Linux user is done playing DQ for the time being.
Posted March 21, 2014
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larsiusprime: So what say you, community? Will you Linux users tolerate the presence or AIR (with our handy auto-install script), or is it better we just don't release the Linux version of DQ on GOG?
I think its kind of a catch 22. If you don't support Linux on GOG some might complain and if you do some might still complain because of AIR.

What about including the AIR versions as a goodie with the Linux install script? Who knows how long the AIR binaries will continue to work on Linux anyway.
Posted March 21, 2014
Hi Lars,

Before I ask this question let me state that I fully realize that you are very busy with Defender's Quest 2 so I apologize in advance if I am overstepping my bounds here.

My question is this:

How difficult would it be for you to make a build of the game on Linux without Adobe AIR? Are we talking a total rewrite or is the code somewhat portable to a different engine on Linux?

Thanks for reading and I hope this isn't too dumb of a question :)
Posted March 22, 2014
Ok understandable.
As mentioned by other posters though. If you are open about it, generally Linux users tend to be ok with it having the choice. Also providing a remove-script for AIR would be considered very thoughtful on your part. Linux users appreciate such things, showing that you cared enough to provide it.
At least that is my 2 cents and how I would perceive it as a Linux user.
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mastorak: Definitely release it but the tolerance will depend on the way you will do it.
If you find a self-contained, just for the game, way for AIR that does not install it systemwide then I dont think anyone will have a problem. None likes AIR though..
For more opinions I would suggest asking the same question in Linux forums rather than GoG forums.
avatar
larsiusprime: There's just no way to make it self-contained on Linux. It's a system-wide install or nothing.

So... do I release a Linux build on GOG, and try to be real up-front about it and say "Hey, warning: on LINUX ONLY, this comes with AIR, that's the only way we could get it to run. If you don't like that, don't do it" ? I feel like I could really open ourselves up to review-score trashing from people who don't understand or don't take time to read the store page and get mad about it.
Posted March 22, 2014
Have you considered one of these options, either exclusively or in addition to an AIR release, for making it self-contained?

1. Convert to a SWF file and then, optionally, embed it in a Linux Flash Projector. (This is how all but one of the AIR games that were released in Humble Bundles did it.)

2. Ask Amanita Design how they managed to bundle a non-system copy of AIR into their Botanicula Linux release.

Failing that, release but warn. In such a case, I'll probably continue to put up with the occasional glitch in the Windows version in Wine since I refuse to give the AIR installer root access.

I know saves can be a bit "fragile" with an SWF but you can actually work around that.

Wrap the SWF in a Flash Projector so it can be guaranteed to run as a process separate from the user's browser, then write a launcher script that does something like `export HOME=~/.local/share/defenders_quest; mkdir -p "$HOME"` before running it so it will create a new LSO store in there rather than using the same one as the browser and cookie-cleaner utilities.

(That trick is also how I worked around attempts by Botanicula and Crayon Physics to clutter up my homedir with non-hidden folders.)
Post edited March 23, 2014 by ssokolow
Posted March 23, 2014
Hey everyone!

So let me outline some possible thoughts and options.

1) Re-release a Haxe version of DQ1
DQ2 is basically going to be a rewrite of the DQ engine with new content. Theoretically this means we could re-release the original game data set in the new engine. The Haxe engine compiles down to C++ so it won't have a trace of AIR or flash or anything. That said, it will NOT be available anytime soon.

2) Do some browser-based wrapper craziness
What we do here is basically take the browser-based full version (what we've got on kongregate basically) and wrap it in chrome or something, various other devs have done this. It's not ideal, but it doesn't involve installing AIR.

3) Release the air version with the install script (AND the uninstall script) and warn, warn, WARN.
l'm honestly a bit nervous about this, but if I can find an example of someone else in a similar situation who didn't get burned I'll be happy to do it.

4) Optionally release something like the linux version wrapped in a WINE wrapper if possible??

So, Judas, basically 1 & 2 are what "an AIR-less version of DQ1" would look like. Either re-write in a new engine (Haxe), which we have to do for DQ2 anyway, or wrap it in a browser. Wrapping in a browser means we lose some features, such as saving data to actual easy-to-manage files instead of storing in flimsy flash cookies, and losing resolution options, mod support, etc, but it removes the specter of AIR.
Post edited March 23, 2014 by larsiusprime
Posted March 24, 2014
Oh yeah, I forgot about the modding support. Killing that for the Linux release would definitely cause Linux users to raise a stink about being second-class citizens (especially with Super Space Defenders being offered as an official extra) so SWF is out as an option.

What about using #4 as a stopgap measure, explaining that's what it is, and using #1 once it's ready?
Post edited March 24, 2014 by ssokolow
Posted March 24, 2014
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ssokolow: Oh yeah, I forgot about the modding support. Killing that for the Linux release would definitely cause Linux users to raise a stink about being second-class citizens (especially with Super Space Defenders being offered as an official extra) so SWF is out as an option.

What about using #4 as a stopgap measure, explaining that's what it is, and using #1 once it's ready?
I'm kinda nervous about a WINE-wrapped Air game... I remember there was a big stink about that when Machinarium (or was it Botanicula?) did that in one of the Humble Bundles.

Here's what I'm leaning towards:

5) "Pick Your Poison": a bundle that lets you pick one of these:
--AIR version of DQ1 on linux + uninstall scripts + warnings (full featured, but has AIR)
--SWF projector of DQ1 on linux (no mod support, and flash cookie saves, but has no AIR)

That way people have some basic options at their disposal. Believe me, it'll be a while before DQ1-haxe is ready.
Post edited July 08, 2014 by larsiusprime
Posted March 25, 2014
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ssokolow: Oh yeah, I forgot about the modding support. Killing that for the Linux release would definitely cause Linux users to raise a stink about being second-class citizens (especially with Super Space Defenders being offered as an official extra) so SWF is out as an option.

What about using #4 as a stopgap measure, explaining that's what it is, and using #1 once it's ready?
avatar
larsiusprime: I'm kinda nervous about a WINE-wrapped Air game... I remember there was a big stink about that when Machinarium (or was it Botanicula?) did that in one of the Humble Bundles.

Here's what I'm leaning towards:

5) "Pick Your Poison": a bundle that lets you pick one of these:
--AIR version of DQ1 on linux + uninstall scripts + warnings (full featured, but has AIR)
--SWF projector of DQ2 on linux (no mod support, and flash cookie saves, but has no AIR)

That way people have some basic options at their disposal. Believe me, it'll be a while before DQ1-haxe is ready.
I wasn't a participant in that but the people I've encountered only raise a stink if they get the impression that Wine is intended as a permanent solution.

Either way, I was actually thinking of a "Pick Your Poison" between Wine and AIR, but I didn't know how well you'd respond to the idea of testing and maintaining two separate builds for one platform.

I suppose your proposal would be good enough as long as it is only a stopgap solution. After all, I can always identify the most suitable Wine version myself if I don't want to wait for mod support.
Post edited March 25, 2014 by ssokolow
Posted March 25, 2014
avatar
larsiusprime: Hey everyone!

So let me outline some possible thoughts and options.

1) Re-release a Haxe version of DQ1
DQ2 is basically going to be a rewrite of the DQ engine with new content. Theoretically this means we could re-release the original game data set in the new engine. The Haxe engine compiles down to C++ so it won't have a trace of AIR or flash or anything. That said, it will NOT be available anytime soon.

2) Do some browser-based wrapper craziness
What we do here is basically take the browser-based full version (what we've got on kongregate basically) and wrap it in chrome or something, various other devs have done this. It's not ideal, but it doesn't involve installing AIR.

3) Release the air version with the install script (AND the uninstall script) and warn, warn, WARN.
l'm honestly a bit nervous about this, but if I can find an example of someone else in a similar situation who didn't get burned I'll be happy to do it.

4) Optionally release something like the linux version wrapped in a WINE wrapper if possible??

So, Judas, basically 1 & 2 are what "an AIR-less version of DQ1" would look like. Either re-write in a new engine (Haxe), which we have to do for DQ2 anyway, or wrap it in a browser. Wrapping in a browser means we lose some features, such as saving data to actual easy-to-manage files instead of storing in flimsy flash cookies, and losing resolution options, mod support, etc, but it removes the specter of AIR.
I do hope you find a solution that works for you :)

All in all, when the time comes to host the Linux version of DQ1, let us know how we can help on our side :)
Posted March 25, 2014
Judas --

Whatever solution I wind up with, I think I'm going to be delivering one of several options to Linux people. Here's what I would need from GOG to pull this off adequately:

1) Proper messaging on the store page, so Linux users are sufficiently informed before they click "buy" and get surprised

2) Some way to deliver obvious, informed choices in the download/installer. I imagine a little screen that pops up and shows a few icons with explanations of each solution and then lets them pick one and click "next", but I suppose just a .zip or .tar.gz file containing two folders (with an install script in each) and an informative README at the top level (and in each folder) could do just as fine.
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Defender's QuestDefender's Quest LINUX version.(43 posts)(43 posts)
(43 posts)