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Yes they are. Particularly BG2 EE. Its only redeeming quality that I wish the original had is "disable cosmetic attacks". Other than that, it's a total disaster.
From the new kits that completely fuck up balance
To the kit and item changes that add fuel to the fire
the mobile-centric UI changes, particularly on the Character Record screen
To then top it all off with changing the way armor and item icons look on the paper dolls from the original.

It's a complete abortion of a release and shows total disrespect by not making all of its dreadful changes optional. Really its only redeemable feature is disable cosmetic attacks which I gather 90% of people don't even use.
Post edited June 24, 2019 by JudasPiss
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pcamagna: Like any community, it's composed of individuals and opinions run the gamut. While a few modders hate the EEs, for the most part it's been embraced--there really is a lot of stuff you can only do on the EEs, modding-wise.
Beamdog. Hate Beamdog.

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JudasPiss: Yes they are. Particularly BG2 EE. Its only redeeming quality that I wish the original had is "disable cosmetic attacks".
TobEx had it for years.
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pcamagna: Like any community, it's composed of individuals and opinions run the gamut. While a few modders hate the EEs, for the most part it's been embraced--there really is a lot of stuff you can only do on the EEs, modding-wise.
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burn: Beamdog. Hate Beamdog.

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JudasPiss: Yes they are. Particularly BG2 EE. Its only redeeming quality that I wish the original had is "disable cosmetic attacks".
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burn: TobEx had it for years.
I actually never tried TobEx. Should it be installed after Fixpack/TweakPack or does the order not matter?
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burn: Beamdog. Hate Beamdog.

TobEx had it for years.
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JudasPiss: I actually never tried TobEx. Should it be installed after Fixpack/TweakPack or does the order not matter?
Before everything. It's a dll extender that modifies bgmain.exe in memory.
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Hickory: Before everything. It's a dll extender that modifies bgmain.exe in memory.
Generally it's installed first, but in fact it doesn't really matter.
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Hickory: Before everything. It's a dll extender that modifies bgmain.exe in memory.
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burn: Generally it's installed first, but in fact it doesn't really matter.
If you're going to do something, do it right.
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Bookwyrm627: This isn't your first meeting and THESE are the responses you are allowed to give? That's...really, really weak writing. :-/

I haven't seen many examples of the dialogue, but what I have seen has been distinctly unimpressive.
I dug some more into the dialogue files. It appears that the screenshot posted by Stig79 only fires if your PC is female (obviously) AND you previously have not accepted Voghiln into your party. To give some background, the first time you meet up with Voghiln, he's in the company of Jaheira, who are the last survivors of a squad from Bridgefort that was sent to try and break through the siege and find help. Voghiln doesn't have much to say during this exchange; he first assumes that you're more crusaders sent to kill them, until Jaheira recognizes you. She does most of the talking and exposition, after which you can either invite her to join your party, or send her south to meet up with the rest of the army from Baldur's Gate that's following you.

Immediately after this, Voghiln, who's been silent until now, pipes up and asks if he can come too. You can either also accept him or send him south. Only if you decline his offer to join the party and then subsequently talk to him again at the camp does that screenshotted conversation show up; in all other scenarios, the "IsInParty" flag means that Voghiln subsequently addresses you by your first name, so it's quite possible that a good many players would never even see that conversation. (Isn't it kind of the standard practice for players to immediately accept new party members, look through their pack to see if they have anything useful/interesting, then kick them out? ;) )

I'll readily concede that the options in that conversation could have been more varied (one thing I will agree with is that Beamdog has a tendency to just provide Good/Neutral/Evil options when writing dialogue. I kinda miss the more nuanced conversation options you get in the original games), but I'd still argue that it falls short of being "political correctness agenda" when at that point in time, Voghiln is a relative stranger to you and hasn't earned the right to address you with that kind of familiarity.

As for good dialogue examples... I suspect it depends a lot on who was the particular writer. I greatly enjoyed whoever wrote Imoen, Skie and M'Khiin's dialogues, but I thought a lot of the others were kinda forgettable. To be honest, I think Beamdog does better in storytelling using "show, not tell" techniques rather than straight-up dialogue. There's quite a memorable encounter where you come across the aftermath of a huge magical battle, and from small clues left around, you figure out that a squad of powerful Bladesingers were sent to hunt down a certain outcast from Suldanesellar.
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Zaxares: I dug some more into the dialogue files.
I suspect you'll forgive me if your description of the circumstances leading to that screen shot do not fill me with confidence in their writing. :)

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Zaxares: I'd still argue that it falls short of being "political correctness agenda" when at that point in time, Voghiln is a relative stranger to you and hasn't earned the right to address you with that kind of familiarity.
Part of it is context. Outside the context of other actions taken by Beamdog, interviews, and so on, maybe this would just look like a moment of poor writing, and no developer is awesome all the time. If they are good, they usually don't have one-off whiffs this bad, though.

Within the context of other interviews and actions taken by Beamdog, this is one item of several that combine to surround the game with a stink of PC agenda, especially for people that are tired of seeing it crop up. I'm sure you've heard about the interview where Amber Scott talks about changing characters because she didn't like their prior personalities.

I am curious: how do you think Voghiln should have addressed you? I don't know anything about his personality/past/character, and him opening up with that line speaks of a dwarf who is gruff, tough, and doesn't really care about the feelings of others (something of a stereotype), though he doesn't have any particular malice, either.
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Zaxares: ...
<Apologist nonesense.>
...
Look at the dialog. I'll say it again, LOOK at the dialog. No writer of any quality or integrity would write such balderdash.
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Bookwyrm627: This isn't your first meeting and THESE are the responses you are allowed to give? That's...really, really weak writing. :-/

I haven't seen many examples of the dialogue, but what I have seen has been distinctly unimpressive.
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Zaxares: I dug some more into the dialogue files. It appears that the screenshot posted by Stig79 only fires if your PC is female (obviously) AND you previously have not accepted Voghiln into your party. To give some background, the first time you meet up with Voghiln, he's in the company of Jaheira, who are the last survivors of a squad from Bridgefort that was sent to try and break through the siege and find help. Voghiln doesn't have much to say during this exchange; he first assumes that you're more crusaders sent to kill them, until Jaheira recognizes you. She does most of the talking and exposition, after which you can either invite her to join your party, or send her south to meet up with the rest of the army from Baldur's Gate that's following you.

Immediately after this, Voghiln, who's been silent until now, pipes up and asks if he can come too. You can either also accept him or send him south. Only if you decline his offer to join the party and then subsequently talk to him again at the camp does that screenshotted conversation show up; in all other scenarios, the "IsInParty" flag means that Voghiln subsequently addresses you by your first name, so it's quite possible that a good many players would never even see that conversation. (Isn't it kind of the standard practice for players to immediately accept new party members, look through their pack to see if they have anything useful/interesting, then kick them out? ;) )

I'll readily concede that the options in that conversation could have been more varied (one thing I will agree with is that Beamdog has a tendency to just provide Good/Neutral/Evil options when writing dialogue. I kinda miss the more nuanced conversation options you get in the original games), but I'd still argue that it falls short of being "political correctness agenda" when at that point in time, Voghiln is a relative stranger to you and hasn't earned the right to address you with that kind of familiarity.

As for good dialogue examples... I suspect it depends a lot on who was the particular writer. I greatly enjoyed whoever wrote Imoen, Skie and M'Khiin's dialogues, but I thought a lot of the others were kinda forgettable. To be honest, I think Beamdog does better in storytelling using "show, not tell" techniques rather than straight-up dialogue. There's quite a memorable encounter where you come across the aftermath of a huge magical battle, and from small clues left around, you figure out that a squad of powerful Bladesingers were sent to hunt down a certain outcast from Suldanesellar.
Ramming all kinds of half-assed political hyseria down people's throats isn't a case of "Show don't tell".
@Hickory: Look, ONE dialogue in an entire game does not constitute an "agenda". If there really was an agenda, you'd be seeing it at every single turn, jammed into every single conversation. I'm well aware of the Amber Scott interview, and yes, I actually agree with most of you that her opinion about Safana and Jaheira being "sexist" against women is incorrect. (Yes, you could consider them stereotypes, but ALL of the BG1 companions were essentially stereotypes. Playing stereotypes like the sly thief or the big dumb barbarian from the North is part of what the fun of D&D is all about!) Again, this was ONE conversation that I suspect most players would never even have encountered. (Assuming that we have equal ratios of male and female Bhaalspawns, and then further only if they choose never to take a particular NPC in their party when the opportunity presented itself.) So yes, now that I'm aware of the existence of this conversation, I completely agree that it's a terrible bit of writing that could have been done much better. But I honestly feel like a lot of the hate being piled on Siege of Dragonspear and Beamdog here is irrationally harsh, like people are determined to build up the game and the devs as "monsters to hate".

No game is going to be perfect, and you're well within your rights to complain to the devs about material that you find objectionable or out of place, but let's not devolve to the point where we tear down everybody and everything because of one thing we don't like about them. Mel Gibson is a racist keghole of a person, but that doesn't mean that I can't still enjoy some of his movies and appreciate them for the parts that are enjoyable. Dismissing everything I say as "apologist nonsense" is part of the reason why everything is so polarized nowadays and people can't seem to come to consensus on anything anymore.

@Stig: That's my point. From what I could see during my playthrough, SoD's writers did far better writing via scene descriptions and item descriptions than their actual dialogue for characters. While I never encountered anything as terrible as that Voghiln screenshot you showed me, most of the companion dialogues in SoD were largely forgettable though. There were characters and dialogues that I thought were excellently written, but I have no idea who was the actual writer who wrote for them.

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Bookwyrm627: I am curious: how do you think Voghiln should have addressed you? I don't know anything about his personality/past/character, and him opening up with that line speaks of a dwarf who is gruff, tough, and doesn't really care about the feelings of others (something of a stereotype), though he doesn't have any particular malice, either.
To be honest, I think they could have scrapped the alternate greeting altogether and just go with "Ho, <CHARNAME!>" that they used for the male protagonist. He definitely WOULD know your name by that point, even if only by reputation (you're one of the top military "attaches" sent from Baldur's Gate by this point, and since everybody from the Balduran encampment would know of you, word of who you are would spread quickly) and you can just work in the word "wench" as part of his romance dialogues, including a whole section where you could go, "Why do you keep calling me "wench", Voghiln?" and from there we can have branching dialogues where you can either choose to get offended, flirt back, or find out that it's just the way Voghiln calls all women, because that's how he was raised.

Voghiln himself is the stereotypical hard-drinking, hard-womanizing bard (except he's also a Viking), so you can see my earlier point about how just about every single character in the BG series started as a stereotype at some point. Much like Safana though, he doesn't appear to mean any malice through his flirting and promiscuity. He likes what he likes, and if you would like to join him in what he likes, good fun all around! (In fact, he and Safana can hook up in SoD depending on several variables.)
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Zaxares: @Hickory: Look,
No, YOU "look". I never indulged in any "monster of hate" tripe, but everything you are spouting IS apologist in regards to the subject at hand. Cherry picking and putting words into my mouth doesn't work on me.
Post edited June 29, 2019 by Hickory
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Zaxares: @Hickory: Look,
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Hickory: No, YOU "look". I never indulged in any "monster of hate" tripe, but everything you are spouting IS apologist in regards to the subject at hand. Cherry picking and putting words into my mouth doesn't work on me.
This. Obviously this.
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Zaxares: To be honest, I think they could have scrapped the alternate greeting altogether and just go with "Ho, <CHARNAME!>" that they used for the male protagonist. He definitely WOULD know your name by that point, even if only by reputation (you're one of the top military "attaches" sent from Baldur's Gate by this point, and since everybody from the Balduran encampment would know of you, word of who you are would spread quickly) and you can just work in the word "wench" as part of his romance dialogues, including a whole section where you could go, "Why do you keep calling me "wench", Voghiln?" and from there we can have branching dialogues where you can either choose to get offended, flirt back, or find out that it's just the way Voghiln calls all women, because that's how he was raised.

Voghiln himself is the stereotypical hard-drinking, hard-womanizing bard (except he's also a Viking), so you can see my earlier point about how just about every single character in the BG series started as a stereotype at some point. Much like Safana though, he doesn't appear to mean any malice through his flirting and promiscuity. He likes what he likes, and if you would like to join him in what he likes, good fun all around! (In fact, he and Safana can hook up in SoD depending on several variables.)
Here's an idea: Try making a mod that does just that yourself. It shouldn't be too hard, particular,ly the first part, and it would be a good way to learn how to mod.

(Incidentally, I have been thinking of a couple design decisions of the original game that are rather questionable (and are carried over to the EE, I assume), but they're out of the scope of this topic.)
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Aaaaaaaaand the cowardly downrep dregs of the forum flock to Zaxares' aid. Don't you feel proud that this pond scum is in your corner, Zaxares?

This changes everything (not). Tehehe! Amusing...