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dtgreene: Also, I can point out that thieves can't heal others without using things like Rods of Resurrection; mages can at high levels.
Not particularly relevant, and mages heal nothing when they're dead.

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Stig79: Can't dispel all of it. Besides. Still need to hit the beasties and the thief's THAC0 isn't that great. While the thief is attacking with a bow, a simple Hold person from the mage, or a confusion spell etc disables him.
Don't need to. I'm just going to sack your Protection From Evil, step out of sight, and let the demons do the dirty work. You did cast Protection From Evil, right?

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Stig79: Have an experienced player create a level 20 mage to fight your level 20 thief and let us know how it goes, will you?
Fancy that, a mage with 1,550,000 more XP has something of a power advantage. Still doesn't save him against that first lethal backstab.

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Stig79: Chain contigency in place with stoneskin, dimension door and improved invisibility triggering.

Next round. Wonder where the thief just went.
FTFY.

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dtgreene: I believe that, if the mage has Protection from Magical Weapons active, that the arrow will not work. (Unlike Mirror Image and Stoneskin, PfMW prevents *all* effects from the attack from working, not just damage.)

Also, if the dispel effect has a school attached (probably Abjuration), it can be blocked with Spell Immunity.

Furthermore, maybe the target you hit with the arrow is a Projected Image. Well, as a mage (or better yet, a sorcerer), I have more of them! (Also, Simulacrum, which can't be destroyed as easily.)
So you didn't cast Protection From Evil before summoning demons? Yeah, I don't even need to use the arrow yet.

Furthermore, you are already dead because I killed you before you knew I was there. You didn't have a reason to be casting PfMW or Projected Images, and I have no reason to decloak while they are active.
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Stig79: Can't dispel all of it. Besides. Still need to hit the beasties and the thief's THAC0 isn't that great. While the thief is attacking with a bow, a simple Hold person from the mage, or a confusion spell etc disables him.
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Bookwyrm627: Don't need to. I'm just going to sack your Protection From Evil, step out of sight, and let the demons do the dirty work. You did cast Protection From Evil, right?
Yes, and I also cast Spell Immunity to ensure that the protection can't be dispelled. (Or PfMW)

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Stig79: Have an experienced player create a level 20 mage to fight your level 20 thief and let us know how it goes, will you?
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Bookwyrm627: Fancy that, a mage with 1,550,000 more XP has something of a power advantage. Still doesn't save him against that first lethal backstab.
Stoneskin, however, does (and only requires 7th level to cast, or 8th to keep active constantly (assuming one rest every 24 hours). Also, since contingencies have been mentioned, they can also come into play; one failed backstab to wake up the mage, then the mage's chain contingency triggers and hits the thief with 3 Horrid Wiltings. Can the thief survive *that*?

That's not the only possibility here.

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Bookwyrm627: Furthermore, you are already dead because I killed you before you knew I was there. You didn't have a reason to be casting PfMW or Projected Images, and I have no reason to decloak while they are active.
Well, remember that Stoneskin saves me from the first hit, and Protection from Magical Weapons can be easily cast at this point. Also, both that spell and Project Image are very quick.

Also, before going to bed I cast Invisibility; now you can't see me, and the spell lasts as long as I don't perform any offensive action. (Remember, that spell also lasts longer than a rest.)
Post edited February 28, 2017 by dtgreene
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dtgreene: Yes, and I also cast Spell Immunity to ensure that the protection can't be dispelled. (Or PfMW)
Well, well. Just checked and Spell Immunity:Abjuration doesn't block the abjuration spell Protection From Evil. Saved by an inconsistency. No matter. All of those spells will run out eventually.

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dtgreene: Stoneskin, however, does (and only requires 7th level to cast, or 8th to keep active constantly (assuming one rest every 24 hours). Also, since contingencies have been mentioned, they can also come into play; one failed backstab to wake up the mage, then the mage's chain contingency triggers and hits the thief with 3 Horrid Wiltings. Can the thief survive *that*?
Sure. The mage never wakes up because the thief dispels his protections and then slits his throat. A simple Spell Immunity: Whatever will block contingency damage.

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dtgreene: Well, remember that Stoneskin saves me from the first hit, and Protection from Magical Weapons can be easily cast at this point. Also, both that spell and Project Image are very quick.

Also, before going to bed I cast Invisibility; now you can't see me, and the spell lasts as long as I don't perform any offensive action. (Remember, that spell also lasts longer than a rest.)
Dispel Magic is a wonderful thing.
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dtgreene: Yes, and I also cast Spell Immunity to ensure that the protection can't be dispelled. (Or PfMW)
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Bookwyrm627: Well, well. Just checked and Spell Immunity:Abjuration doesn't block the abjuration spell Protection From Evil. Saved by an inconsistency. No matter. All of those spells will run out eventually.
Actually, Spell Immunity does not protect you from any of your own spells (for example, it won't protect you against your own Skull Trap) IIRC.

(I know it works this way for Globe of Invulnerability. I have also read that apparently the Enhanced Editions changed this behavior.)

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dtgreene: Stoneskin, however, does (and only requires 7th level to cast, or 8th to keep active constantly (assuming one rest every 24 hours). Also, since contingencies have been mentioned, they can also come into play; one failed backstab to wake up the mage, then the mage's chain contingency triggers and hits the thief with 3 Horrid Wiltings. Can the thief survive *that*?
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Bookwyrm627: Sure. The mage never wakes up because the thief dispels his protections and then slits his throat. A simple Spell Immunity: Whatever will block contingency damage.
The thief doesn't have Spell Immunity or Dispel Magic.

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dtgreene: Well, remember that Stoneskin saves me from the first hit, and Protection from Magical Weapons can be easily cast at this point. Also, both that spell and Project Image are very quick.

Also, before going to bed I cast Invisibility; now you can't see me, and the spell lasts as long as I don't perform any offensive action. (Remember, that spell also lasts longer than a rest.)
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Bookwyrm627: Dispel Magic is a wonderful thing.
A wonderful thing that Thieves do not have access to. Furthermore, the thief has to suspect that I am there to dispel me.

(Also, it seems you have been forgetting about the Detect Illusions skill, which would defeat some of my strategies.)

One more thing: Imagine if you could have one character who gets *both* the abilities of a thief and the abilities of a mage. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

(By the way, you can backstab while polymorphed. In a speedrun, the player had Yoshimo backstab the SoA final boss while shapechanged into an Iron Golem.)
Post edited February 28, 2017 by dtgreene
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Bookwyrm627: Well, well. Just checked and Spell Immunity:Abjuration doesn't block the abjuration spell Protection From Evil. Saved by an inconsistency. No matter. All of those spells will run out eventually.
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dtgreene: Actually, Spell Immunity does not protect you from any of your own spells (for example, it won't protect you against your own Skull Trap) IIRC.

(I know it works this way for Globe of Invulnerability. I have also read that apparently the Enhanced Editions changed this behavior.)

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Bookwyrm627: Sure. The mage never wakes up because the thief dispels his protections and then slits his throat. A simple Spell Immunity: Whatever will block contingency damage.
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dtgreene: The thief doesn't have Spell Immunity or Dispel Magic.

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Bookwyrm627: Dispel Magic is a wonderful thing.
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dtgreene: A wonderful thing that Thieves do not have access to. Furthermore, the thief has to suspect that I am there to dispel me.

(Also, it seems you have been forgetting about the Detect Illusions skill, which would defeat some of my strategies.)

One more thing: Imagine if you could have one character who gets *both* the abilities of a thief and the abilities of a mage. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

(By the way, you can backstab while polymorphed. In a speedrun, the player had Yoshimo backstab the SoA final boss while shapechanged into an Iron Golem.)
How did Yoshimo do that? He dies way before the end in SoA.
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dtgreene: The thief doesn't have Spell Immunity or Dispel Magic.

A wonderful thing that Thieves do not have access to. Furthermore, the thief has to suspect that I am there to dispel me.
UAI.

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dtgreene: One more thing: Imagine if you could have one character who gets *both* the abilities of a thief and the abilities of a mage. Wouldn't that be wonderful?
I can. Its called a Thief. :P
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Stig79: How did Yoshimo do that? He dies way before the end in SoA.
Glitches
Post edited February 28, 2017 by Bookwyrm627
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dtgreene: (By the way, you can backstab while polymorphed. In a speedrun, the player had Yoshimo backstab the SoA final boss while shapechanged into an Iron Golem.)
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Stig79: How did Yoshimo do that? He dies way before the end in SoA.
Here is a detailed explanation of how this is possible:
1. Player buys a Limited Wish scroll. (Money can be raised via the gem underflow glitch.)
2. Player either:
a) has Yoshimo use the scroll via the item swap glitch, or
b) has someone else use the scroll, and then has Yoshimo talk to the genie
Yoshimo then makes a one-time wish for Shapechange.
3. Before the Shapechange wears off, Yoshimo gets killed, then revived with a Rod of Resurrection. This prevents Shapechange's end effect from occurring, giving him the ability to Shapechange permanently.
4. On reaching Spellhold, Yoshimo does two polymorph teleports: One to reach the area with the portal to the Underdark, and another to actually reach the portal. This skips the entire Spellhold dungeon, and in particular skips the scene where Yoshimo leaves the party.
5. With Yoshimo still in the party and still with Shapechange abilities, all that needs to be done is to play through the rest of the game and place him into position before the final boss.

Edit: Here's a link to a speedrun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yxR_462_CY
Post edited February 28, 2017 by dtgreene
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Stig79: How did Yoshimo do that? He dies way before the end in SoA.
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dtgreene: Here is a detailed explanation of how this is possible:
1. Player buys a Limited Wish scroll. (Money can be raised via the gem underflow glitch.)
2. Player either:
a) has Yoshimo use the scroll via the item swap glitch, or
b) has someone else use the scroll, and then has Yoshimo talk to the genie
Yoshimo then makes a one-time wish for Shapechange.
3. Before the Shapechange wears off, Yoshimo gets killed, then revived with a Rod of Resurrection. This prevents Shapechange's end effect from occurring, giving him the ability to Shapechange permanently.
4. On reaching Spellhold, Yoshimo does two polymorph teleports: One to reach the area with the portal to the Underdark, and another to actually reach the portal. This skips the entire Spellhold dungeon, and in particular skips the scene where Yoshimo leaves the party.
5. With Yoshimo still in the party and still with Shapechange abilities, all that needs to be done is to play through the rest of the game and place him into position before the final boss.

Edit: Here's a link to a speedrun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yxR_462_CY
Who has the time and patience to sit down and figure all this out?
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dtgreene: Here is a detailed explanation of how this is possible:
1. Player buys a Limited Wish scroll. (Money can be raised via the gem underflow glitch.)
2. Player either:
a) has Yoshimo use the scroll via the item swap glitch, or
b) has someone else use the scroll, and then has Yoshimo talk to the genie
Yoshimo then makes a one-time wish for Shapechange.
3. Before the Shapechange wears off, Yoshimo gets killed, then revived with a Rod of Resurrection. This prevents Shapechange's end effect from occurring, giving him the ability to Shapechange permanently.
4. On reaching Spellhold, Yoshimo does two polymorph teleports: One to reach the area with the portal to the Underdark, and another to actually reach the portal. This skips the entire Spellhold dungeon, and in particular skips the scene where Yoshimo leaves the party.
5. With Yoshimo still in the party and still with Shapechange abilities, all that needs to be done is to play through the rest of the game and place him into position before the final boss.

Edit: Here's a link to a speedrun:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6yxR_462_CY
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jsidhu762: Who has the time and patience to sit down and figure all this out?
Some people find this sort of thing fun.

Also, it is very likely that this isn't just the work of one person; many gamers were involved in finding each trick/glitch, figuring out how each trick/glitch works, and putting them together to get the speedrun you see.

There are other tricks involved, like breaking cutscenes. For example, if one manages to break the cutscene that plays when you complete the starter dungeon, you can keep that version of Imoen (which, I believe, would allow you to get two Imoens in your party if you don't skip Spellhold). Later on, spells like Limited Wish can be used for cutscene breaking, much the way Polymorph Self and Shapechange can be used to go through walls.

There are some games, like Super Mario 64 and many Pokemon games, that have been disected to an even greater degree. Super Mario World and early Pokemon games (and a few others) have even been pushed to the point where a player can actually trick the game into executing arbitrary code; somebody even put Flappy Bird into Super Mario World (on a console without any cheat devices or any third-party hardware) and got the game to execute it!
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jsidhu762: Who has the time and patience to sit down and figure all this out?
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dtgreene: Some people find this sort of thing fun.

Also, it is very likely that this isn't just the work of one person; many gamers were involved in finding each trick/glitch, figuring out how each trick/glitch works, and putting them together to get the speedrun you see.

There are other tricks involved, like breaking cutscenes. For example, if one manages to break the cutscene that plays when you complete the starter dungeon, you can keep that version of Imoen (which, I believe, would allow you to get two Imoens in your party if you don't skip Spellhold). Later on, spells like Limited Wish can be used for cutscene breaking, much the way Polymorph Self and Shapechange can be used to go through walls.

There are some games, like Super Mario 64 and many Pokemon games, that have been disected to an even greater degree. Super Mario World and early Pokemon games (and a few others) have even been pushed to the point where a player can actually trick the game into executing arbitrary code; somebody even put Flappy Bird into Super Mario World (on a console without any cheat devices or any third-party hardware) and got the game to execute it!
I had the same reaction when I heard about finishing Pokemon yellow in zero registered time.
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dtgreene: Some people find this sort of thing fun.

Also, it is very likely that this isn't just the work of one person; many gamers were involved in finding each trick/glitch, figuring out how each trick/glitch works, and putting them together to get the speedrun you see.

There are other tricks involved, like breaking cutscenes. For example, if one manages to break the cutscene that plays when you complete the starter dungeon, you can keep that version of Imoen (which, I believe, would allow you to get two Imoens in your party if you don't skip Spellhold). Later on, spells like Limited Wish can be used for cutscene breaking, much the way Polymorph Self and Shapechange can be used to go through walls.

There are some games, like Super Mario 64 and many Pokemon games, that have been disected to an even greater degree. Super Mario World and early Pokemon games (and a few others) have even been pushed to the point where a player can actually trick the game into executing arbitrary code; somebody even put Flappy Bird into Super Mario World (on a console without any cheat devices or any third-party hardware) and got the game to execute it!
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jsidhu762: I had the same reaction when I heard about finishing Pokemon yellow in zero registered time.
Well, somebody has done even better! Watch this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vjm8P8utT5g

Also, somebody managed to create a virus for Pokemon Red/Blue, spread via link cable, that makes an old rumor come true:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2x3pIvVnP4
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dtgreene: If the wizard in question happens to be an enemy, however, the wizard will cast True Sight, and that spell can't be interrupted (because the wizard's AI script uses ForceSpell() rather than CastSpell()).

This might not be exactly fair (because how would the wizard know to cast the spell), but that's the way it works.

Also, a thief needs to use up a potion or item charge to do this, whereas the wizard's strategy doesn't use up anything that can't be recovered with just some rest.

Also, as I mentioned, the knife will hit a skin made of stone and have no effect, allowing the wizard to wake up. (Also, keep in mind that PfMW is near instant cast.)
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Bookwyrm627: A thief doesn't have to rest to be able to use Hide In Shadows repeatedly. Walk close enough to trigger casting of True Sight, then walk away before casting is complete and wait for it to run out. Rinse and repeat. Other repeatable invisibility options include the Ring of Air Control, Ring of Invisibility, and Ring of Gaxx, all 3+ of which recover with some rest.

The stoneskin will not block additional effects, like rapid ticks of poison damage. Or a scroll of Remove Magic.

And if you really want to get technical: since stone skin keeps the knife out, you're attempting to dodge the issue by precluding part of the statement: a knife between the shoulder blades.
Yeah, plus if the person backstabbing has a dagger that dispels magical protections, devours souls and is self-aware... shit gets complicated quick.
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Stig79: 1. I could have sworn BG2 has both. Which is the relevant game since we are talking about level 20 characters here.

2. Dimension door is great for getting some distance between your mage and the thief. Gives you time to destroy the thief in the next 2-3 rounds.
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dtgreene: 1. In BG2, Dimension Door is not learnable by the player. (In fact, I believe all scrolls of it were repleced with Stoneskin scrolls (which is why there are two types of Stoneskin scrolls).
Hmm, I wonder why it was removed. (It works just fine in Icewind Dale, in particular, and there's actually one little bit of loot in Heart of Winter you can only get using Dimension Door ...).
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Bookwyrm627: A thief doesn't have to rest to be able to use Hide In Shadows repeatedly. Walk close enough to trigger casting of True Sight, then walk away before casting is complete and wait for it to run out. Rinse and repeat. Other repeatable invisibility options include the Ring of Air Control, Ring of Invisibility, and Ring of Gaxx, all 3+ of which recover with some rest.

The stoneskin will not block additional effects, like rapid ticks of poison damage. Or a scroll of Remove Magic.

And if you really want to get technical: since stone skin keeps the knife out, you're attempting to dodge the issue by precluding part of the statement: a knife between the shoulder blades.
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GoatBoySteve: Yeah, plus if the person backstabbing has a dagger that dispels magical protections, devours souls and is self-aware... shit gets complicated quick.
Does such a weapon exist? If so, what's the item code for that weapon?