As gog doesn't allow me post a review of the Avernum 1 remake, I post it here.

This remake is a sad dumbing down of Avernum 1 and it's a shame the dev get encouraged on that path by old school players/indie RPG players, this is a reference of the blindness totally positive reviews that push players give money to the dev no matter for what game they'll do it, tsss.

The main problem is coming from quest goals shown on global map, and even showing party position on global doesn't help. The global map exploration was a strong point of Avernum 1, it was mixing well a good dose of exploration and sense of discovering to an exploration gameplay relatively light thanks to the ability to rush on global map through parts already explored. It was a major gameplay element of Avernum 1 that was building a strong mood of exploration and discovery of a large world. The pointless quests cursors of global map destroy most of this gameplay. And the ability to see the party position on global makes it too much trivial because the global map is too much detailed.

Another element weakens too much the gameplay quality, it's relative to the tricks, secrets, problems to solve. The remake is based on a framework/tools set/graphics set which is a lot weaker to design secrets and tricks, most just become too trivial and it make them almost void.

For sure the remake also brings multiple good points like dialogs better managed, an effort of rework on many texts, some elements added. Also if the class/skills system is overall a bit dumbing down, the new system also bring multiple positive elements. Also obviously the UI and graphics of the remake are less bad.

So it's a difficult case, if you have the heart to get used to the old graphics, old bad UI, it's a much better to play firstly Avernum 1 and then try the remake if the previous version doesn't worth for you. But in no case you can apply the positive comments you can read about Avernum 1 and apply them to this remake.

Moreover if you want play a more streamlined indie RPG than is Avernum 1, then try instead Avadon 1 which is a lot better than this Avernum 1 remake.

What, you like blindly stumbling around a massive overworld with no idea what quests are active, not knowing where to go to turn in a quest, and blindly hoping to stumble into the right NPC? I take it that guessing conversation topics and what verb is considered valid by a text prompt is a conquest for you as well.

Avernum 1 had no quest tracker. Avernum 1 had no AP system! Once you did something, you committed to it, no chance to back out. Also, this is more petty than anything, but Avernum 1-3 are looking kinda tiny on a 1080p screen.

As for the graphics, if you want to be Jeff's graphics artist, then by all means he's willing to look for applicants. Personally, I think he's done a great job.

The maps, are both optional. One can be minimized, and the other you have to actually invoke.

Well in my opinion, Avernum Escape From The Pit is a huge improvement over Avernum 1.
And the Avadon series isn't all that good. EftP is a much better.

How does the quest tracker in the remake work? Are map markers given for quest objectives as well as quest givers? Are the markers mandatory or optional? I did like that I had to explore in order to find my objectives in Avernum 1, but it was annoying that there was no way to remember where the quest giver was to turn in the quest. Also, if I forgot about a quest (and forgot to record the conversation in my journal) then there was no way to tell whether a quest was active. So I'd like a quest journal and markers for quest givers (I already found them, after all!) but I don't think I'd like having the quest objectives marked, because I enjoy finding those myself.

I also really liked looking for secrets (especially the third-level spells) and was disappointed that secret doors no longer existed in Avernum 4. I gather that the secrets still exist in Escape From the Pit, but the OP thinks they're too easy to spot now? What do others think?

The markers are for objectives, not for the givers. A minor issue is that there isn't a way to glean the status of a quest that isn't 'Kill X and report back to Y.', aside from clicking on the giver and hoping that you either get completion dialogue or a new option appears allowing you to turn in the quest/show item. And items in the magic junk bag are rendered invisible to NPCs.

There is a quest journal, but the problem is, even at 1080p, it quickly fills up to the point where you have to scroll it should you snag every quest availed to you. I wouldn't mind being able to select a quest focus so say the person in question would be highlighted (once complete, otherwise the location would be), and provided certain stats, a clearer description, a vague in game picture of what you're looking for currently, and a few clues.

Even with the new quicktravel system, you still do often find yourself running in circles not quite sure where you are going if you aren't focusing on a major storyline quest, and even when you do focus, the descriptions can lead you to dead ends. Even with the boats, Avernum is just a touch understandably convoluted to navigate, and I feel it'd be a bit much to have a magic GPS that ran off your magic map. :P

[spoiler]

One such bugbear I have is that currently I'm searching for a certain key related to the First Expedition so I can open a door in the Scree Pits crypt. The hints said that Motrax had it. I already raided the treasures to his left, and there seems to be no option to ask him, so I pilfer to the right, being quite careful not to anger the dragon. I find a neat sword, but alas, there still is no key. I'm a bit confused.

[/spoiler]

Edit: Oh, right. Secrets. There are no invisible walls anymore and instead every place has a little red switch that can be easily spotted in most places.

I'm going to have to respectively disagree with the above posters. I have always enjoyed the world of geneforge/avernum, but couldn't get past the interface.

At the time that Spiderweb started, I was rolling with Might and Magic, Wizardry, and Dragon Warrior.


Many years later, I discover GOG, and Spiderweb Software again. Only now, we have an awesome point click interface and easy item management.

Now I can enjoy the highly detailed game world without the unfun tedium of a poor interface (what i like to call "work", the enemy of fun).


As a result, while I appreciate Exile and Geneforge, I have loved Avadon and the Avernum remakes. I eagelry look forward to future updates of his games.

Different strokes for different folks...

Some quest givers does not know the location you can finish the quest, but it is marked on your map, which is a bad dumb down. I am okay with the rest.

"Quest log, map markers, and graphical cues for secrets added. Game is broken."

You know you don't have to press the W key for the map if you don't want to right? You're not that dumbed down, right?

I wish we could ban you to an underground cavern. By Christ.

OP, it's kind of like trying to explain to someone the joy of hand crafting something or climbing a mountain, etc. Instead they buy the item from Walmart or order the item from eBay and take the ski lift and never get the experience of the journey, only the end point. Imagine a dark house of horrors. Now imagine a well lit "house of horrors" with markers everywhere to tell you where everything is at all times. The experience of the dark and exploration is gone, the tension is gone, the risk of mistakes are all gone. Without the chance to explore, experiment and fail it spoils it. Training wheels are not improving games.

The element of tension and player skill vanishes over time as people dumb down and water down the experience to the lowest common denominator. Progress Quest was more visionary than comedic.

Or people they decide they have better things to do?

A better example is making ice cream. Sure, I can gather the kids and we can all gather around and take turns pouring salt, sugar, and milk into the machine and take turns cranking it for hours. Oh what fun!

Or....

We can open a tub of ice cream from the store with everyone's favorite flavor and then use the spare time to do something else that's fun.


Kinda like playing find that NPC you talked to 6 months ago quest vs. having a journal that keeps track of that for you, so that you can save yourself a few frustrating hours of non fast travel exploration and tedium and get back to playing the actual "game".

I think I prefer the original over the remake, but not for the reasons mentioned in this thread. Specifically:

1. The original system was more tolerant of build mistakes than the remake's system. In the remake, you can't put more than one point in a skill per level, so if you accidentally fail to put a point into an important skill, you are down a point forever. In the original, you could make up the difference later. Another issue is that the remake makes teaching a character new skills later on impractical, while the original doesn't have that issue. Another thing worth noting is that skill points are finite in the remake, while in the original there is a money sink that lets you get theoretically infinite skill points; in the remake, that's gone. Also, the fact that you can only get a skill (for most skills) above 10 if you hold off on training it until it reaches 10; that's the sort of thing I don't like. I also dislike having to do a level all at once instead of being able to spend some skill points and save others for later.

2. The fact that apparently gold is a problem in the remake long term. The fact that there is no way to even get a semi-decent price for the junk you find is one issue here. In the original, this wasn't as much of an issue (though I wish dungeons would respawn without having to use the Character Editor).

3. The fact that attacks missing is apparently commonplace. In the original Avernum games, at a high enough skill level, physical attacks became 95% accurate (with additional accuracy turning into damage) and spells never failed. I much prefer this over every attack becoming a dice roll. (Also, from what I've read, it seems that if you are slightly underleveled, your attacks miss way more often, which is not fun.)

What you're not realising is that it is the EXPERIENCE that makes it better. Not just the end product (although the end product with the hand made method is almost always better than your overpriced supermarket chemical slop anyway). If you want only the latter you can play Progress Quest or any number of "one button/click" parody adventures with no loss as a sense of achievement and challenge means nothing if you have that mindset. Click to win, watch the credits. Save you all that "effort".

The experience is what makes it worth while. This is what drives people to trek across dangerous deserts and up mountains. Not to simply reach the end point which can be done by FAST TRAVEL, aka the bus or a plane.

Dead rescued from the tomb, remake of Avernum 2 works much much better in my opinion. There's probably many similar dumbing down than for Avernum 1 remake but the secrets/mildly hidden stuff/trick framewrok is much better and/or much more/better exploited.

So it's still the markers chase syndrome that no open world modern CRPG seems able to avoid, but the exploration is much better and that changes a lot.

For those with the simplistic answer to not check the map:
- Firstly not use at all the map is removing a good mechanism.
- Secondly the game would probably need a better web in hints and directions panel and places or paths description and npc providing directions, more.

And no the solution isn't to replay Avernum 1 instead of the remake because it's hard deny the GUI is better even if it's far to be good.

But I'll also admit it's a more general problem than just an Avernum remake dumbing down, it's a problem of modern open world CRPG unable to work without markers.

I am disappoint to hear there are quest markers in the remake. I still plan to play it but I hate that. I heart a more modern interface and hopefully it has a proper quest log. It is prevalent in modern crpgs to have them now but for me it really ruins immersion. Personally, I think there should just be options to turn them off, in any game.