I'm about to build my character (some manner of mage, debating whether or not I'm going to go battle mage, use magic to become a fist based battle mage, or just pure mage...maybe with some throwing) and I just wanted to make sure I understand how skill trainers work. Can I invest all my points into spells and attributes, or will I need to put some of my points into persuasion or melee in order to make them effective? How many points would I need to invest before I can handle the rest with trainers? Thanks in advance

You need to put points into skills.

1. Skills have base stat requirements. To even be able to put a point into a skill, you need to have its base attribute at an appropriate level (example: Persuasion depends on Charisma). Attribute requirements are 6 for the first point invested into the skill, plus 3 for each subsequent point.

2. Training doesn't increase skills in terms of points, it enhances them indirectly - e.g. Apprentice training in Melee makes you attack faster. Base skill efficiency directly depends on the amount of character points you invest into it (plus skill bonuses from equipment, blessings, etc.). "Efficiency" includes base accuracy for combat skills like melee and throwing, with no points invested you will barely be able to hit anything at all.

3. Training itself has minimum skill level requirements, IIRC 2,25 points for Expert and 4,5 points for Master - except Persuasion, which requires you to have a full skill bar to even get the mastery quest.

Persuasion in particular is special because it's only checked in dialogue, and those checks are for raw skill value, training being irrelevant (and they, of course, increase as you progress through the game).

I was too late with my reply! But just to reiterate, if you wan to use a specific skill (Melee, Dodge, Throwing) you will need to put points into it, and there's a decent chance you'll eventually want to max it out. Putting points into skills is the only way to raise them. If you try to fight in Melee with zero points in Melee skill, you're more likely to hurt yourself than to hurt the enemy.

As a mage you could try to just rely on spells and not have many skills. But skills are fun, and doing the training to get Master level usually involves an interesting quest. And you'll have enough points to use some skills. So I'd recommend trying to mix your mage with either fistfighting or throwing (like you mentioned) to make things more interesting.

Making different characters and roleplaying them differently (making different choices through the game) is the best part of Arcanum, so have fun with it!

So skill trainers don't actually increase skill rank, but give additional bonus to the skill if you're high enough rank? Damn, now I have to actually figure out what I want this character to be and can't hedge as easily.

Mages are usually pretty easy to play, so you have room to mess around a little without worrying too much that you're messing up your build. If you really want to min-max you'll have a very easy time in the game. Personally I think it' s more fun to come up with a concept for a character and then try to roleplay that character as well as you can. There's definitely room for non-optimal character builds to be viable.

Everyone is giving you great advice here, but I thought this deserved a bit of clarification. The basic concept is that you can only ever progress so far in a skill without a teacher. You could go through the whole game and max out whatever skills you like, and you'd be pretty good at them, but you'll never become a pro without someone to teach you.

First, once you have more than zero in a skill, you have to find an Apprentice level teacher. Those are abundant and easy to find. They usually just want a bit of money to help you, and you'll be able to do some things with your skill that you weren't able to do before.

Next, once you're over halfway to maxing out the skill, you'll need to find an Expert level teacher. These are a bit trickier to find, but not all that hard. They usually want more money to make you an Expert, but you'll get some really nice extra abilities once you've been taught by an expert.

Finally, once you've maxed out the skill, you'll have to try to find the Master. There's only one Master for each skill, and getting them to train you usually involves a quest of some sort. It's almost always worth it though, because once you've been trained to master level you're so good you can pull off all sorts of incredible, superhuman feats.

so...I need to get a trainer in order to gain the effects of putting ranks into my skills? Or is it I get half the benefit of raising a skill form my character point, and the other half when I get a trainer?

Those are different kinds of benefits. Example:

- Every character point put into a skill increases its base efficiency by 20% (in game terms, a point equals to 4 skill ranks, so it's 5% bonus per rank - equipment bonuses increase efficiency accordingly depending on how much they add). You get this bonus regardless of training. You put a point into melee, you got +20% accuracy.

- Apprentice training in melee increases the speed of any melee weapon you wield by 5. Faster weapon speed = more attacks per turn = stuff dies quicker.

According to http://www.terra-arcanum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=172989#p172989 persuasion training is supposed to do something, assuming you have followers.

My post was more about whether it's training or skill points that determine skill efficiency, namely - that you don't need any training in Persuasion to actually pass the various skill checks. Yes, you do get to maintain your followers better, but as far as dialogue is concerned, it doesn't matter. (Unlike, say, combat skills, where training has practical application in battle by making you attack more often.)

Did you download the Players Guide along with the game? The info about what apprenticeship, expertise, etc. do for each individual skill is in there, along with a chart of which abilities are prerequisites for which skills.

Ah, found that part of the manual. I forgot it existed because I saw 187 pages and said no. So Ranks are how likely you are to succeed and Training is extra bonus' for money.

Anyway, one final question about developing my character. If I'm going mage, is trying to max out persuade and Charisma too much to ask while doing melee/throwing on top of it? The concept of my followers leaving me bothers me and I like the idea of recruiting everyone, plus diplomacy is just kind of the standard "invest in me" skill in rpgs. But I feel like doing magic, persuade AND fighting is too much of a strain, based on how slowly stats are passed out.

Also, will money ever become more prevalent, or should I invest in haggle? I find myself carrying around a lot of random junk items (so I'm a pack rat) and the idea of just being able to unload it all on any merchant sounds really appealing, since I don't know who buys what. I'm assuming my Railway spikes aren't going to find any buyers, for example?

If you're the type to plan ahead, you will have 64 CPs (character points) to work with: five at the start, one per level, and an extra one every fifth level. (If you install the Level 127 hack, which lets you go past level 50, then you can have more.)

You can also hedge your bets with magic: Gloves of Dexterity give you +2 DX (once your MA is high enough), the spell Agility of Fire gives you +4 DX (and it stacks!), the spell Strength of Earth does the same for ST, etc.

Keep in mind as well that MA maxes out at +100, which (unless you're elven, dwarven or also taking any tech-based skills) means 20 spells makes you as magic as you can get. Again, there are in-game items and/or character backgrounds which can affect this.

Your follower limit, if you max out (and take at least expertise in Persuasion) is six total, plus any free non-human followers (such as the Worthless Mutt in Ashbury, or a summoned familiar). There's also a gamebreaking exploit, if you ever want to enslave the entire world later on.

As far as money goes, you will eventually outdo Gilbert Bates himself; taking Haggle just gets you there quicker. Junk dealers buy junk and gypsies buy magic items, but both pay out a lot less than other merchants; herbalists and armories give you the best rates, but only by a little. I tend to play solo, which means no "pack mules", so for me Haggle is an absolute necessity.

Charisma and Persuasion are very worth the CP spent on them (you can get even some 3-4 extra points of Charisma if you know to steal certain equipment). Diplomacy in this game is a powerful weapon. Also, "mage" is a broad term, really. If you want to master even a single magickal college, you'll have to invest about 10 points into Willpower to get the high-level spells. But, you can also stick with low-level stat-boosting spells to complement you fighting skills and leave Willpower at a lower value, then you'll have more points. While maxing out MA makes your spells stronger, it's not neccessary if you plan to rely on combat skills, and the "[Attribute] of [Element]" series of spells isn't affected by it.

(For the record: one of my characters was a masochistic half-elf bowman with Agility of Fire and insane Charisma. Mastered all four combat skills, Persuasion and Heal. Had to learn two schematics from Herbology to be able to afford ammo. Your life will be much easier than that.)

Okay, feel free to ignore me if this would cause spoilers, but you CAN'T just tell me I can take over the world and leave it at that.