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PrimordiaWill we ever see primordia in HD without pixels?(14 posts)(14 posts)
(14 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted March 21, 2015
Hi,

So let me first tell that I loved the story and universe of this game it was coherent, intriguing, characters well developed, loved the dialog and funny nerd jokes, the game made you think! Like a worst case scenario with the interaction between machines and human how each would see each other, but it also showed how machines could also fail without humanity.

Oh and that music fitted so well with the game, story, art style and it was just the cherry on top.

The only game I remember playing that was so believable and coherent was Knights of the Old Republic.

My only big problem was that in most of the game the paintings(screens/locations/characters) were so pixelated and it really broke immersion and made it easier to detached from the game(something that passioned, dreamers and scifi lovers to not get affected like me) but this really bug me in a deeper level.

Some games are art for me and this one is clearly one ... I just feel that a game that works perfectly in so many levels will suffer by pixelated paintings.

I just want everything to be HiRes in well painted 2D artwork , no noticeable Pixels and probably some good effects with rain, mud, lighting, water would work so well!!

I'm up for crowdfunding this.. Please really consider.

Thank you,
DeathmachinePT
Post edited March 21, 2015 by deathmachinept
Posted March 23, 2015
I think the answer is probably not. While doing higher resolutions of some elements (like the backgrounds) would not be impossible, many of the animations would be very hard to replicate at higher resolution. Likely we'd have to scrap pixel animation altogether and go with some kind of cartoon-like cell animation (like Monkey Island 3). I can't speak for Victor or James (the artist and coder), but to me, I'd rather spend those kinds of resources on a new project.

There are various high-resolution stills from Victor's paintings and so forth, if you'd like to see those?
Posted March 23, 2015
Thank you for the reply,

Even just the stills would be better if shown in hi-res.

I remember seeing ingame a picture like this:
http://www.gameconnect.net/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/pri9.jpg

It was a rare moment where you would actually see a Zoom still of your face and I felt so underwhelmed by the fact I could not see the details that made out my character(me) and I don't recall seeing a HD version of my character in game.

Which is ashame since the game writing and sound creates in your head such a powerful world but then the pixelation disconnects you from what you are hearing and feeling.
(I actually wanted to see all character in Hi-Res because all seem to be quite different and unique from each other)

The primordia world is just too real and immersive to be pixelated, a game like this would have to be well drawn realistic or made in 3D even if it meant the gameplay would just happen in 2D like Trine 2.

Really hope the team considers if you have a game with just a deep and coherent world and with so many unique interesting concepts and characters, really consider doing Cell Animation then or like Trine 2 did.

I can assure this is a game that a visual/graphical improvement would be a significant feature that would impact the experience of the player and I'm really that kinda of guy that gameplay is the most important thing in a game.

Thank you for listening and if you are indeed the one who wrote the game and that world, that was such fantastic work! it had so many layers!
Post edited March 23, 2015 by deathmachinept
Posted March 23, 2015
To each their own, I guess, as I actually think Primordia benefits from its pixellated look. It didn't distract me in the least from the superb writing and the amazing world and character design.

Personally, I think it stimulates the gamers' own creativity and imagination; when you can't quite see something clearly you tend to fill in the gaps with your own imagination and vision of the caracters and the world. Plus, as someone who grew on the old LucasArts and Sierra point-and-click adventures, the pixellated style of Primordia certainly pulls that nostalgia string, as it looks and feels a lot like those classic games I grew up playing. Obviously, some people will be put off by the graphics, but, then again, I never felt like Primordia's target audience were the so-called "graphic whores", so I never even thought about this being an issue.

I once saw an official development page depicting the pixellization process in the game (down-rezzing the sprites), and it was a fascinating look into that process, maybe Mark can link you to that as well. I always felt like the look of Primordia was premeditated and thought-out, I don't think the developers ever wanted to make it a high-res, HD video game, and, in all honesty, I think the pixel look works really great for it.

On a side note, yes, Mark really is the talented writer of Primordia, and part of the awesome Wormwood Studios.
Posted March 24, 2015
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groze: To each their own, I guess, as I actually think Primordia benefits from its pixellated look. It didn't distract me in the least from the superb writing and the amazing world and character design.

Personally, I think it stimulates the gamers' own creativity and imagination; when you can't quite see something clearly you tend to fill in the gaps with your own imagination and vision of the caracters and the world. Plus, as someone who grew on the old LucasArts and Sierra point-and-click adventures, the pixellated style of Primordia certainly pulls that nostalgia string, as it looks and feels a lot like those classic games I grew up playing.

I once saw an official development page depicting the pixellization process in the game (down-rezzing the sprites), and it was a fascinating look into that process, maybe Mark can link you to that as well. I always felt like the look of Primordia was premeditated and thought-out, I don't think the developers ever wanted to make it a high-res, HD video game, and, in all honesty, I think the pixel look works really great for it.
Has I said I got stimulated by sound and writing what disconnected me were the visuals with pixels maybe because the images were not truly drawn as pixel per pixel images so the down-rezzing meant that there would be no control on where the color tones on the images would end up comparing games like BSS you read much better the pixelated images.
I also remember some objects in the game were difficult to understand because of pixelation.

And I also just found out that this was a common criticism others had about Primordia.
Posted March 25, 2015
Thanks for the kind words from both of you.

The game was definitely never intended to be high resolution. In terms of how the graphics were made, in some instances Victor did paint and color a character, then down-res it, and "clean it up" in pixels. This would typically be done for the base frame, not for every frame. But as far as I know, he only did a couple of minor characters this way. (Groze: You're thinking of the lamplighter "sprite making tutorial" that Vic had on the old Primordia site. When he let the site lapse, we lost the graphics for that.) Most of the sprites, I believe, were made from scratch using pixels. In terms of the backgrounds, they were initially sketched with pencil, then scanned, then digitally "inked" and "colored" at the resolution they would have in game. They were not down-sampled from a painted background, as far as I know. (In BASS, I believe they were hand-painted, scanned, and down-sampled.)

I can understand the desire to see Victor's art in higher resolution. I tentatively agree that it looks better that way -- I think the sinuousness of his lines is harmed, a bit, by large pixels because they tend to make the organic forms blockier than they otherwise would be. Moreover, Vic loves baroque flourishes, but when they're in low resolution they sometimes are hard to "read" visually. (Those are the reasons we went with a higher resolution for the failed Cloudscape.)

That said, I'm a big fan of pixel art, and our next project is a mix of pixel sprites and backgrounds and occasional painted still images. Hopefully you'll enjoy the world building in it as well!
Posted March 25, 2015
Thank you Mark Y.

For me pixel art works in games like Gods Will be Watching, The art looks like it was never down sample there and everything fits the remaining pixel art concept.


The key point for me was that the majority of images in primordia seem to have been painted in Hi-Res and then made pixelated while others like some characters and items looked to be Pixel painted from the ground up this for me created a disconnection and wanting me to see the game in Full Hi-Res since most of the game seemed closer to realistic digital paintings than pixel art.

I think if this isn't very financing or time consuming it should be really consider to improved Primordia with Hi-Res, especially since all art style, images, color palettes are already made. And this could be done safely by freelancers since they would just have painted over the pixelated images.
Posted March 26, 2015
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deathmachinept: I think if this isn't very financing or time consuming it should be really consider to improved Primordia with Hi-Res, especially since all art style, images, color palettes are already made. And this could be done safely by freelancers since they would just have painted over the pixelated images.
It would be a huge undertaking to make the game high resolution. If you've played the HD versions of Monkey Island, you may have noticed that certain things aren't quite right -- the animation is choppy and somewhat odd, for example. In still images it may look good, but in motion it often doesn't. As a moving image gets larger, it needs more frames in order to appear fluid. Redoing the backgrounds would be (relatively) easy but redoing the sprites would be extremely hard. The cost of hiring freelancers to do so would surely exceed any bump in sales. (Consider how many character animators were necessary in Monkey Island 3 vs. Monkey Island 2.)

More importantly, Victor made a conscious decision as to what he wanted with the art and the resolution. I know it might seem like "the majority of the images" were painted and down-scaled, but that's not correct. They were sketched and then scanned and then pixeled -- which is the way that almost all of the VGA Sierra and Lucas Arts games were done as well, AFAIK.

In any event, I am pretty confident we won't be undertaking the task. But if we ever do Cloudscape, at least it will be in a higher resolution. :D
Posted March 27, 2015
K thx maybe the drawings were just too realistic and seemed to me more color rich that other pixel art games that I have played.
Posted July 31, 2016
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WormwoodStudios: Thanks for the kind words from both of you.

The game was definitely never intended to be high resolution. In terms of how the graphics were made, in some instances Victor did paint and color a character, then down-res it, and "clean it up" in pixels. This would typically be done for the base frame, not for every frame. But as far as I know, he only did a couple of minor characters this way. (Groze: You're thinking of the lamplighter "sprite making tutorial" that Vic had on the old Primordia site. When he let the site lapse, we lost the graphics for that.) Most of the sprites, I believe, were made from scratch using pixels. In terms of the backgrounds, they were initially sketched with pencil, then scanned, then digitally "inked" and "colored" at the resolution they would have in game. They were not down-sampled from a painted background, as far as I know. (In BASS, I believe they were hand-painted, scanned, and down-sampled.)

I can understand the desire to see Victor's art in higher resolution. I tentatively agree that it looks better that way -- I think the sinuousness of his lines is harmed, a bit, by large pixels because they tend to make the organic forms blockier than they otherwise would be. Moreover, Vic loves baroque flourishes, but when they're in low resolution they sometimes are hard to "read" visually. (Those are the reasons we went with a higher resolution for the failed Cloudscape.)

That said, I'm a big fan of pixel art, and our next project is a mix of pixel sprites and backgrounds and occasional painted still images. Hopefully you'll enjoy the world building in it as well!
I know this post is coming in pretty late, time-wise, but just for anyone else who happens to stumble across this post, archive.org thankfully has a snapshot of this page https://web.archive.org/web/20120818142055/http://www.primordiagame.com/making_sprites.htm
Posted August 05, 2016
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WormwoodStudios: Thanks for the kind words from both of you.

The game was definitely never intended to be high resolution. In terms of how the graphics were made, in some instances Victor did paint and color a character, then down-res it, and "clean it up" in pixels. This would typically be done for the base frame, not for every frame. But as far as I know, he only did a couple of minor characters this way. (Groze: You're thinking of the lamplighter "sprite making tutorial" that Vic had on the old Primordia site. When he let the site lapse, we lost the graphics for that.) Most of the sprites, I believe, were made from scratch using pixels. In terms of the backgrounds, they were initially sketched with pencil, then scanned, then digitally "inked" and "colored" at the resolution they would have in game. They were not down-sampled from a painted background, as far as I know. (In BASS, I believe they were hand-painted, scanned, and down-sampled.)

I can understand the desire to see Victor's art in higher resolution. I tentatively agree that it looks better that way -- I think the sinuousness of his lines is harmed, a bit, by large pixels because they tend to make the organic forms blockier than they otherwise would be. Moreover, Vic loves baroque flourishes, but when they're in low resolution they sometimes are hard to "read" visually. (Those are the reasons we went with a higher resolution for the failed Cloudscape.)

That said, I'm a big fan of pixel art, and our next project is a mix of pixel sprites and backgrounds and occasional painted still images. Hopefully you'll enjoy the world building in it as well!
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HGwells628: I know this post is coming in pretty late, time-wise, but just for anyone else who happens to stumble across this post, archive.org thankfully has a snapshot of this page https://web.archive.org/web/20120818142055/http://www.primordiagame.com/making_sprites.htm
Thanks for digging that up!
Posted September 21, 2016
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WormwoodStudios: Redoing the backgrounds would be (relatively) easy but redoing the sprites would be extremely hard. The cost of hiring freelancers to do so would surely exceed any bump in sales. (Consider how many character animators were necessary in Monkey Island 3 vs. Monkey Island 2.)
So I just need to become billionaire to I can use few dozen thousands dollars for this... Good to know. :D
Posted September 22, 2016
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WormwoodStudios: Redoing the backgrounds would be (relatively) easy but redoing the sprites would be extremely hard. The cost of hiring freelancers to do so would surely exceed any bump in sales. (Consider how many character animators were necessary in Monkey Island 3 vs. Monkey Island 2.)
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etb: So I just need to become billionaire to I can use few dozen thousands dollars for this... Good to know. :D
I would always urge you to spend your money on better things, but yeah. :D
Posted September 22, 2016
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WormwoodStudios: I would always urge you to spend your money on better things, but yeah. :D
Better things? O_o
Something better than a high resolution Primordia? Are we talking of stuff you can actually buy with money?
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PrimordiaWill we ever see primordia in HD without pixels?(14 posts)(14 posts)
(14 posts)