I don't see what people love about this game. I was hoping it would be like Deus Ex, full of emergent gameplay and interesting philosophical choices, or at least like Baldur's Gate, full of adventure and heroism and excitement.

Instead i just play a brown zombie wandering around a brown world with no discernible purpose. I've played 8 hours and just finished the godsmen quests. What is the point? So eventually TNO will finally commit suicide ? Is that all there is to look forward to?

Part of the disconnect, I suspect, is that Planescape as a setting is that it's rather far removed from most RPGs, especially the likes of Baldur's Gate. Baldur's Gate is traditional heroic high fantasy in the vein of Tolkein, while Planescape is concerned more with urban fantasy with a more Gaiman-esque and philosophical bent. Deus Ex touched on various philosophies throughout the game and ended by allowing the player to guide JC to act as a savior to the world in accordance with whatever philosophy they agreed with the most, but it did so in a relatively plausible setting where philosophy was, while the driving force behind the actions of various characters, largely in the background. Planescape, on the other hand, is set in the planes, which are metaphysics made solid, so the philosophical focus tends to be more in the foreground if not the focus; to give an example in an attempt to explain what I mean, the struggle of law against chaos, while in most fiction is purely metaphysical in nature, the planes make it a literal conflict in the form of the Blood War, a war between demons and devils who are constantly warring over how best to dominate existence.

As to the game itself, the focus of PST is primarily character study and exploration of various philosophical concepts (the nature of good and evil and whether anything is capable of changing the nature of the individual to name a few); as a result, the pacing early on is somewhat slow as you follow the trail of breadcrumbs to recover your memories and find out why you are immortal and how (if possible) it can be reversed (or made safe, without going too far into spoiler territory). The former is fleshed out both through the actions of the PC (TNO) and the PC's interactions with the various side characters, especially the party members. TNO does have some rather... different ways of approaching problems from a moral standpoint, but those are limited to events and characters which are relevant to the plot, and less the case with talking to identical commoners (although that's not always the case).

With regards to the side characters, the exploration of the game's various concepts is more fleshed out. Talking with party members will flesh out their own personal character arcs throughout the course of the game, and will also give insights into some of the more focal questions the story raises (if you've gotten as far as the Lower Ward, you probably know the one in particular I am referring to). The interactions you have with the various vital NPCs throughout the course of the plot serve a similar purpose, as do some of the more fantastical events that occur.

I apologize for not being more clear but (1) I'm honestly not sure what level of spoilers you are comfortable with, and I figured it was best to err on the side of caution unless otherwise requested, (2) trying to explain in words the more metaphysical aspects of the setting and story can be hard to do, and is even more so when trying to avoid potential spoilers, and (3) school has not done me any favors with regards to making my writing terribly concise.

tl;dr: PST is an initially slow moving story that focuses heavily on individual character arcs and philosophy. Please let me know if I have misunderstood your question or otherwise failed to answer it in a helpful manner.

Deus Ex and Baldur's Gate are two games I have never, ever seen compared to PST...;) Where on *earth* did you get that idea?...! The games are not remotely similar: what you've described is an object lesson on how *not* to play computer games; namely, never fire up a game with a bunch of pre-conceived expectations! Rather, allow yourself to really play the game by letting the game take you where it will.

Biggest complaints I've seen about this game is that it doesn't play like it was expected to. So they try and make it play the way they expected it to play instead of the way it is designed to be played--by completing the quests you're given, as you are given them, mainly. One guy actually tried to play it like Skyrim and got very frustrated because he kept getting killed (didn't build the character through the role playing quests as the game intended.) It was really pretty funny...;)

The attraction of this game is that it *isn't* like a cookie-cutter Baldur's Gate or Deus Ex knock off. The game is Original with a capital "O". It's great--really great--but you have to be willing to let the game take you where it will instead of trying to force it into some kind of a mold it just won't fit. There is simply no other RPG like it. The premise, the characters, everything is unlike anything else. Once you acclimate yourself to that aspect of it you can much more fully appreciate what it has to offer.

My advice: put it aside for the time being, then later, when you feel like it, start a new game but this time with no preconceived notions--let the game take you on its journey. It's a trip well worth taking...! If you do that, then you'll understand the hype.

Planescape: Torment is one of my favourite games ever. However, I found that the game is a slow starter. It's probably the only game that I love that I nonetheless felt was actually physically and mentally tiring to play for long stretches of time - particularly early on - so I don't actually recommend playing it in huge chunks at once.

Firstly, this game is only good if you like a lot reading. If you don't like reading, you won't like Planescape: Torment.

Secondly, the game is slow paced. It took me a long time to finish, as I explored everything, read every item description, and talked to everyone I met extensively. If you don't like that, sort of slow approach, you probably won't like this game. I found that there came a point where it 'clicked' with me and I really started to 'get' the setting and the way everything worked - before that I found it strange and alienating.

Thirdly, It doesn't ever get action-filled, and while I personally enjoyed the combat in the game, a lot of people don't and I can understand why. It's probably most fun if you play as a Mage as you get access to some pretty eye-candy to make the combat more fun, but it's not exactly balanced or particularly strategic.

I grew rather attached to the characters - particularly the Nameless One I was roleplaying as - and wanted to see what they would discover about themselves and each other. The quest is an unusual one: it's not a 'save the world' quest, rather it's a personal journey for the Nameless One to discover who he is, and why he can't die. It takes time to unravel, and in my opinion gets steadily better over time.

My advice isn't to force yourself to play it and desperately try to wring fun out of it in marathon sessions. Take it slowly, explore thoroughly, talk to everyone. If you feel like you're getting either tired or impatient with it, take a break for a while, as you're not in the right frame of mind for it.

And lastly: not everyone likes the same sort of games. If you just hate it, there's nothing wrong with you, maybe it's just not up your alley.

I don't know, some of the fights in the later parts of the game got a little hairy, but by that point the party had access to magic that laid waste to worlds when used strategically. My personal favorite was chucking a Blacksphere in the next room to act as a flashbang, then sending Dak'kon and TNO to take point through to take down weakened targets with Reign of Anger and Magic Missile in order to make a safely fortified position for the rest of the party.

Oh, don't get me wrong - like I said, I personally did like the combat. But I feel like its not the strong suit of the game - the combat in Baldur's Gate was probably a bit better, in my opinion - and it was usually most fun with lots of high-level spellcasting. I have a feeling that playing The Nameless One as a warrior might be a bit boring, and the fact that you can't really die does reduce the stakes somewhat.

Why would anyone prefer the bland Baldur's Gate to PS:T?

[][].].

The biggest issue with trying to play torment like you would BG and similar, is building a character entirely wrong to get the full story. If you pump all your stats into str/con/dex and leave int and wisdom low you're basically crippling your ability to get the full picture.
Without high int and wis, a lot of ialogue options, a lot of puzzles and a lot of backstory are NEVER revealed. A bit of a flaw when you think about it, but that's the thing about Torment, like the setting it's set in, combat is NOT your friend.
Even the RPG books for Planescape basically tell you "don't try to take on anything". It's a setting where even the freaking CROWS and PLANTS will flat out murder you.
Planescape is a harsh and unforgiving setting for your standard dungeon basher.

Torment also just doesn't play like a regular rpg. You have a read so much, have to approach everything in often fairly counter intuitive ways and die.. a lot. Overall there's not a remarkable amount of combat in the game and a fair bit of what their IS is ridiculously unwinnable (swarming enemies you're meant to run away from, not engage)

How you build your party will also impact your story line. Certain characters, Da'kon and Morte for example, are somewhat crucial to getting your backstory. But you can't get that without high wis/int so again, arghhh.

It's a slow game so if you're looking for a game full of dungeons and monsters and hack and slash, torment isn't the game for you. It's got more in common with games like Sanitarium or Faust, where you wander about and learn things as you go. It's story heavy, very story heavy and actually pretty linear. The plot is interesting but you have to pay a lot of attention. You're not really spoon fed stuff and it's easy to miss little tidbits (Like that zombie in the morturary you can chat to, like several character's backstories and so on)

It's very true to the Planescape campaign setting, of which i'm a HUGE fan. But that's because it's a setting that pretty much turns standard D&D mentality on it's head and messes with you.
I used to have great fun taking greyhawkers into planescape bwhahahah.

Butyeah, torment isn't gonna be for some people. It's not Baldur's gate or Icewind Dale despite using the same engine and being Dungeons and Dragons. Much as I love BG, Torment is quite a different beast.

I'm playing Torment and it's turning out to be my favorite RPG adventure since the Baldur's Gate saga, and that is saying much. I have to admit, though, I was expecting it to be a lot heavier in the way of philosophical content. It has some philosophical dilemmas but they are not unusually difficult, just enough to influence the alignment of your character by making decisions and talking to the various characters.

The most difficult problem in the game so far has been figuring out how to open those blasted gates in the Lower Ward! I must be slow or something but I've played this far with little difficulty and now I'm stuck at this late stage. >:(

With regards to the Lower Ward, what gates are you talking about? If you mean the gates to the foundry, you should be able to speak to the guard to get him to open the gate, iirc.

As to Planescape's philosophical focus, it's more about the plot and general commenting on things like the nature of good and evil and what, if anything, can change human nature.

Hell with it, I know I was going to try holding off the spoilers, but here goes. Sorry if it reads like a mess; studying is leaving me more addle brained than usual these days.

MINEFIELD O' SPOILERS







Deinorra prophesies that TNO will by the end face three enemies, embodiments of Good, Evil, and Neutrality twisted and given life by the laws of the Planes (of which there are many; hell, her prophesy alone fits the Rule of Three to a T). When I first heard that, part of me wanted to roll my eyes because I was expecting the result to be the usual mess that tends to get made whenever D&D tries to explore Good and Evil and does so with all the insight of a pre-schooler. The game went on and I got sucked more into the world of Sigil, a city where philosophy was the center of everyday life in a way that would be mere subtext in any other setting. I can't pinpoint the exact point when I started realizing that the game was going where it was, but one of the more telling moments that leaps to mind was in the Civic Festhall.

I had gone there to look for clues about my next objective and in doing so inadvertently stumbled across a Sensory Stone containing a memory of one of my past incarnations. This wasn't the first time I had run across evidence of him, but after that I was able to form a full picture of him. He was the definition of Evil; he cared only for advancing his own interests, he felt no emotion for any sentient life (other than annoyance when they didn't do what he wanted), and yet he was a great leader who consistently did good things in order to suit his own needs. He tried to help Dak'kon with his crisis of faith, but did so to make him able to master the Karach blade. He showed love and kindness to Deinorra, only so that he would be in a better position to emotionally manipulate her into following him so that he could kill her to establish a link to the place where his enemy resided. He was Evil, yes, but it manifested in subtle ways as opposed to Sarevok giggling while he killed people as if he were receiving a blowjob from a nun whose orphanage he had already decided to burn down.

Once we left the city and started running into the enemies Deinnora had prophesied, the foreshadowing of how Good and Evil were being treated in universe got brought home violently. We ran into Ravel Puzzlewell, supposedly one of the most Evil and selfish nighthags to walk the Grey Wastes, only to find a tired and lonely creature who had made her largest contribution to the plot out of love for another. Later still, we ran into a Deva, an embodiment of the concept of all things Good, and he was prepared to pull a Lucifer and wage war on the Upper Planes out of disgust for their role in fueling the Blood War by providing arms.

Good and Evil had both been flipped onto their heads, yet without disregarding the meaning of the terms. Ravel did what she did to satisfy her own desires, and Trias did what he did out of a belief that it was best for the Planes. They both acted as the planes dictated they should, but not as one would commonly expect. Ravel's actions were selfish, but they were no more selfish than anyone who does something out of desire for the love of another, and Trias may have acted out of a desire to act for the good of the planes, but he did so by committing treachery and planning to destroy the very manifestation of Good. They acted within the rules that the multiverse had laid down for them, but they somehow were doing things that felt... off.

Why was that? It could be part of Planescape as a setting showing that Good and Evil, as constructed from the beliefs of those in the Prime of what those concepts are, will always be somewhat imperfect and are not the objective truths that those in the Realms tend to treat them as; I could see that, especially after the setting material I beefed up on for my Planescape game. But near the end, the game reminded me of something that had happened earlier that made me think that there may have been more to it than that. At one point in the game, belief literally moves a city, and one of the game's dialogue options at the end comments on it, and it made me realize what they might have been aiming for.

See, the big question the game loves to ask is "what can change the nature of a man?" It sounds like it's going to be meaningless arc words that ultimately sound cool, but ultimately give the player nothing to think about. The game doesn't go that route, however; instead, it offers many different potential answers and provides many examples that could go either way, and forces the player at points to ponder the answer when conversing with certain characters. By the end, the game offers one suggestion that I hadn't considered all that much: belief. To quote the game, "I’ve seen belief move cities, make men stave off death, and turn an evil hag's heart half-circle." Belief has been the driving force of the status quo of the Planes, but it has also resulted in some of its more noteworthy deviations, as that option and the game as a whole showed.

tl;dr: By providing a close look into the nature of Good and Evil, the game suggests that belief defines how we understand human nature, and it also has the ability to change it. At the very least, that's one of the things I get out of it.

This is an interesting topic! I never played Planescape Torment because I already heard that it takes a lot of time to play it the right way. Now, after I have read the first 3 responses, I am convinced that I won't start playing it until I have enough time again (= next winter), but I also see I definetly should give this a try. Thanks for this really helpful thread!

This was my first RPG ever, so I didn't have a problem as to how it should be played because I didn't have a clue (was around 12 years old). I just let the game drive me... I knew I should go with high int and wis for dialog (mainly out of my own reasoning), but for some reason I always thought of TNO as a fighter (maybe the fact that he looks like a barbarian), so I didn't care for the thief class and only use the mage class to improve on Dakkon's repertoire. I have to say it is the best story/character driven game I have ever played. After this I played Icewind Dale, and strangely so, even though it had mainly combat and a much simpler story (still one of my favorites though) I played it similarly to Planescape. And again when I played Baldur's Gate. Maybe I was lucky I played it as my first RPG, yet somehow I can't seem to get interested on any new RPGs. When you start with a game so up high, you don't want to go down :P

For the OP, don't think of it as a game but rather as an experience.

I don't know if I'd go that far; it is a game, but it's a deliberate and marked departure from most D&D CRPGs. The same gameplay mechanics are there, they're just put to different uses. Combat is sparse, but it is till very much present, but it only shows up where it makes sense to in the world or as a means of driving the narrative, and the rest of the gameplay revolves around the non-combat aspects of RP that tends to get the short end of the stick elsewhere.

I for one was impressed when I realized that the game never felt like it was trying to shoehorn in a fight to meet some kind of imaginary quota or out of an expectation that an RPG should be filled to the brim with combat. It was nice to see a D&D game that actually tried to incorporate more of the non-combat aspect of gaming. Hell, it's pretty much how I ran my Planescape game; granted, I wound up having to randomly throw an encounter the party's way since they turned out to be more interested by the combat than I had anticipated.

I think the first thing might be that forcing yourself to do something that you want to also find fun may not be the best approach especially with such a type of game/piece of art. You have to be open and wanting to experience what it has to offer and think of it less as a game that will force its fun upon you no matter how much you try (it's not like forcing yourself to stand in line to get on a roller coaster you're not sure you'll like and eventually the ride will overtake you and it will be worth it, it's not like that at all.) Think of it more as a true and deep and dark adventure to be experienced in a similar way to a great book or movie, more to be taken seriously and savored and reflected upon, rather than a fun trip for the whole family to enjoy like Indiana Jones or Lord of the Rings where it's a lot of flash and fun and not a lot of soul-searching.

As has been said, you have to be okay with reading a lot, and it's good to want to think deep thoughts as well. There is a learning curve, you want to play as a mage only IMO (switch to one as soon as you can), the mortuary takes a good minute to get out of as does the hive in general, and then the story really gets going, but all that beginning content is really worthwhile and should be savored as well. The more I've played the mortuary, the more I like it. Each zombie is unique in the first areas and it's fun to go through each of their spiels/quests. Use a walkthrough if you want and make sure you get everything, because it is ALL worth while and not hard to do a bunch of stuff, have a few save game points depending on your choices, and then go check to see what you missed.

Lastly, ENJOY all of the dialogue. No other game will give you so much to say or have all that is said mean so much. Especially if you have high intelligence (a must IMO, it gives the most information and makes it all that much more interesting.) Choose what you say wisely, this is not an "exhaust all the options blindly" game, listen to what is said to you, read all of your response choices, and really get into the character and decide what YOU want to say. It's done SO WELL and uniquely to any other game as far as allowing you to assume the identity of the main character of the game. Most games either give you a faceless or face-you-constructed empty vessel that you fill with thoughts and choices as they all you to through the game OR are an already fully-fleshed-out character that their personality unravels (with varying differences depending on your choice, sure) as you maneuver them and unfold the story and their involvement. This is just done a bit differently, because it is all about your character and how you go about finding out who you are determines who you are and who you've been.