sorry for late reply. was on vacation.
20 is doable with a bit of cheese even in a party of 6. what you need to do is to turn off exp sharing for skill checks before doing high Persuasion checks. That is ofc mainly suitable for Cha mains, but it nets about 300-400k exp per check. firstone is in armags tomb if you go for the last option without telling him anything else.

1 ecclesi is ok, but casters don't have high enough DC's to do anything well. You can go for strength domain for transformation and longswords for Purity or whatever that crafted longsword is called. That'll net 2 transforms per rest. not amazing but at least it's something.

2 I thought about val kinetic knight, tested it a bit and sad story is Kinetic kinghts is shit cause he has no AOE way of automatic knockdowns other subs have. Better way of maing her more intersting is multiclassing her with Sorc/EK/DD and using buffs and no-save spells. At least that way she will be a lot more useful. Roahin in the topic next door Has pretty much exactly the samething I'd do, except I'd likely swap extra sorc level for Stalwart

3 Octavia's Con is so low that nuker wizard is pretty much the only thing she does ok-ish. And AT is good for alpha striking. I guess you can make her an EK with a crossbow(for more reliable crits) and pump her dex instead of int.
rangers are OP for damage. There i no wrong way of doing them as long as you pump Fey line all the way. They do tend to go all out into ranger though and I prefer posing more tricky builds and avoid single-class ones as they are easy for most anyone to build.
will need to check it when I have time. I will swap crit and SM for now, thanks

Hi there, i followed your Thread quite some time and it helped me a lot with my own builds.

Currently I tried out one of your builds, with a few tweeks. The Mad-Doge works theoreticly quite well, to bad the Mad Dog skills are fucked up and your pet does not get improved trip (or better, it gets it, but looses it once it grows.) So I swtiched out the Smilodon (which I don't like as tripper anyway since it looses his awesome amount of attacks for the trip, which sucks kinda hard. So I took the leopard, which at least has trip build in, even while I sadly don't get the AoO for it. I also skipped Cleave, since I fear it is a trap aswell, at least once you hit more attacks, took some more utility for it.

What I actually wanted to ask, any idea on a natural attacker? I have some stuff running around my mind, but not totaly pleased with them, since some mechanics are not included or stuff that fucks up natural attacks (like improved unarmed strike canceling claws 'cause you are no longer "unarmed" which sucks hard)

P.S. It was actually quite amusing to read the exchange between Roahin and you :D it was the perfect example of Lawful vs. chaotic ^^

Thanks for the answers, as usual, you see from a different point and it's helpful :)

check "tripping balls" one for shifter druid. it's not amazing but it's fun. also "what about dragons" does it well enough albeit will likely be a bit of a suffer for the first few levels as casters tend to be. also you will get to be a fire-breathing bear.

PS was more like LE vs LG

This. Despite how it might come across sometimes, I've an enormous amount of respect for InEffect. Even if we don't agree on build principles, the man knows what he's doing and his builds are worth taking the time to read over.

Here's a better challenge (for anyone): characters that do not feature multiple 7 stats.

Let's take it up a notch: characters that have
1. no mental stat lower than 8. Jamandi refuses to offer the position of Baron to an obvious moron or social reject.
2. only 1 physical stat lower than 8 allowed IF it's a stat that gets a racial penalty (i.e. halfling with very low STR is ok)
3. all other physical stats must be 8 or higher
4. Last but not least: character builds must make at least some attempt to be thematically coherent/consistent.

Begin.

Pretty much take almost any build and drop class stat by 2. Done. I do believe all of them are thematically rather consistent.

Aldori Investigator (DLC required)

Role: Damage Dealer/Tank

Race: Tiefling(Shackleborn)
Alignment: Any

Stats:
Str: 17 > 22
Dex: 13
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 8*
Cha: 14
*You can dump Wis to 5 and get 16 con or cha, but it’s not absolutely needed. So here it is, non-minmaxed build for a change.

Final Build: Aldori Defender 9/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) 7/Rogue(Thug) 4

Main skills: Persuasion, Perception, Mobility 3, Use Magic Device
Suggested secondary skills: Whatever you fancy(19 spare points).

Detailed leveling breakdown:
Lvl 1: Fighter - Dodge // Weapon Focus: Dueling Sword
Lvl 2: Alchemist
Lvl 3: Fighter - Improved Unarmed Strike // Crane Style
Lvl 4: Alchemist - Feral Mutagen
Lvl 5: Alchemist - Dazzling Display
Lvl 6: Alchemist - Combat trick > Outflank
Lvl 7: Alchemist - Crane Wing
Lvl 8: Alchemist - Feral Wings
Lvl 9: Fighter - Shatter Defenses
Lvl 10: Fighter - Crane Riposte
Lvl 11: Fighter - Persuasive // Heavy Blades
Lvl 12: Fighter
Lvl 13: Fighter - Combat Reflexes
Lvl 14: Fighter
Lvl 15: Fighter - Improved Critical: Dueling Sword // Fighter Tactics // Heavy Blades
Lvl 16: Rogue
Lvl 17: Rogue - Toughness* // Combat Trick > Greater Weapon Focus
Lvl 18: Rogue
Lvl 19: Rogue - Power Attack // Combat Trick > Dreadful Carnage
Lvl 20: Alchemist
*or Blind Fight if you don't have an alchemist to give out echolocation

Gear: Heavy Armor, Duelist sword +Stat gear, +AC gear, Alkali Gloves, Opportunist's Boots, Lesser Extend Rods

Weapon Specializations are skipped due to feat shortage. We get most of our damage from STR stacking.

Proof of concept build. With new Alchemist discoveries from DLC Stacks some decent AC. Has self-sustainable shield(with extend rods) and 60m mutagen that should be enough to clear most maps. Has Web for early-game.

Aldori Provides some extra Feats, AC and AB.

Thug is there to Frighten enemies, add more sneak dice, evasion and uncanny dodge in one neat package. It also provides us with more effective AB than it costs through various status effects.

Does not really care what 1h weapon he uses till mid-game.

Has decent persuasion, so if you want to go for lvl 20 through Per checks - he can do it.

Aldori Swords are pretty mediocre and it would be totally insane if we could get our hands on a longsword instead, but we compensate with huge str bonuses and some sneak dice. Good AB from different sources. Totally adores Legendary Proportions cast on him.

Pretty RP-friendly. Takes classes and skills royal investigator(or a very nosy baron) could pick up in his career.

Bite-barian (DLC required)

Role: Damage Dealer/Controller

Race: Tiefling(Motherless)
Alignment: NG, switch to LG after lvl 5
Pet: Dog for max trip or leopard for combat.

Stats:
Str: 17 > 22
Dex: 14
Con: 14
Int: 13
Wis: 16*
Cha: 7
*You can drop it by 2 and get 9 cha for more balanced stats that you want because reasons.

Final Build: Barbarian(Mad Dog) 5/Alchemist(Vivisectionist) 7/Monk(Traditional) 1/Inquisitor(Sacred Huntsmaster) 7

Main skills: Perception, Mobility 3
Suggested secondary skills: Whatever else you like. Mobility and Athletics are a good choice due to no armor. Lore(nature) is ok as well

Detailed leveling breakdown:
Lvl 1: Barbarian - Combat Expertise
Lvl 2: Barbarian
Lvl 3: Barbarian - Trip
Lvl 4: Barbarian - Animal Fury
Lvl 5: Barbarian - Fury’s Fall
Lvl 6: Monk* - Crane Style
Lvl 7: Alchemist - Outflank
Lvl 8: Alchemist - Combat Trick > Greater Trip
Lvl 9: Alchemist - Boon Companion
Lvl 10: Alchemist - Feral Mutagen
Lvl 11: Alchemist - Exotic Weapons > Fauchard
Lvl 12: Alchemist - Feral Wings
Lvl 13: Inquisitor** - Improved Critical > Fauchard
Lvl 14: Inquisitor
Lvl 15: Inquisitor - Combat Reflexes // Seize the Moment
Lvl 16: Inquisitor
Lvl 17: Inquisitor - Tandem Trip // Favored Enemy: Fey
Lvl 18: Inquisitor - Precise Strike
Lvl 19: Inquisitor - Accomplished Sneak Attacker***
Lvl 20: Alchemist

*Pick him the moment you shift to LG
**Pick whatever god you fancy. Travel domain is mechanically the best.

Important spells:
Alchemist:
Shield, Cure Wounds, True Strike, Enlarge Person, Restoration, +Stat Spells

Inquisitor:
Divine Favor, Remove Fear, Cure Wounds, Restoration, Remove Paralysis, Delay Poison(Communal), Resist Energy(Communal)

Gear: Fauchard(any 2h weapon till 11), Monk Robes, Bracers, +AC gear, +Stat gear, Cloak of winter wolf, Lesser Extend rods.

Has 2/3 bites per round(all of which auto-trip), has good AB, 60m mutagen, self-sustainable shield, Wings(on a tiefling! Looks nice), lvl14 pet(buffed by our team feats).

Fauchard is taken for that sweet +5 CMB.

Could've used armor instead of Monk goodies, but there is no point in it. we already want some Wis for the inquisitor spells and it would never reach anything approximating good AC. And we kinda have to have it as bite forces you into 2ft distance.

Bites from different sources should not stack, but they do in this one.

Dog is taken for teh trips and 15 base STR.

Concept build. No Shatter.

Not exactly RP-friendly, mostly due to the race and alignment shift. The rest broadly falls into Barbarian hunter who assumed responsibility and some such. Race is not such a big deal imo as it could be either a redemption story or just an exception. Low Cha can be easily explained by big teeth and some feral habits that scare everyone around… Still, not what most DM’s would allow.

Valerie the Annoying Dragon.

Role: Tank/Support

Stats:
Str: 14 > 18 +4 From DD
Dex: 13
Con: 19
Int: 9
Wis: 10
Cha: 15 > 16 @20

Final Build: Fighter(TSS) 1/Sorcerer 5/Dragon Disciple 4/Eldritch Knight 10
Bloodline: Doesn’t really matter, but judging by her ability to annoy everyone around I’d vote for Copper.

Main skills: Mobility 3, Knowledge(Arcane) 5*, Persuasion (max)
Suggested secondary skills: Perception(Max), Use Magic Device 1
*By level 5

Detailed leveling breakdown:
Lvl 2: Sorcerer - Extend Spell
Lvl 3: Sorcerer - Arcane Armor Training
Lvl 4: Sorcerer
Lvl 5: Sorcerer - Arcane Armor Mastery
Lvl 6: Dragon Disciple
Lvl 7: Dragon Disciple - Outflank // Blindfight
Lvl 8: Dragon Disciple
Lvl 9: Dragon Disciple - Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
Lvl 10: Eldritch Knight - Dazzling Display
Lvl 11: Eldritch Knight - Improved Critical: Bastard Sword
Lvl 12: Eldritch Knight
Lvl 13: Eldritch Knight - Weapon Specialization: Bastard Sword
Lvl 14: Eldritch Knight - Arcane Strike
Lvl 15: Eldritch Knight - Shatter Defences
Lvl 16: Eldritch Knight
Lvl 17: Eldritch Knight - Intimidating Prowess
Lvl 18: Eldritch Knight - Greater Weapon Focus: Bastard Sword
Lvl 19: Eldritch Knight - Persuasive*
Lvl 20: Sorcerer**
*or Dreadful Carnage
**Can be swapped to Thug for more Crowd Control should you feel you need it. You don’t lose too much.

Spells by level in order of importance:
Lvl 1: Shield, Enlarge Person, True Strike, Corrosive Touch, Magic Missile
Lvl 2: Mirror Image, Glitterdust, Sense Vitals
Lvl 3: Haste, Resist Energy(Communal), Displacement, Heroism
Lvl 4: Animate Dead, Protection from Energy(Communal), Dimension Door, Stoneskin
Lvl 5: Waves of Fatigue, Geniekind, Angelic Aspect, Vampiric Shadow Shield
Lvl 6: Heroism(Greater), Transformation, Dispel Magic(Greater)
Lvl 7: Waves of Exhaustion, Legendary Proportions, Firebrand*
Lvl 8: Seamantle**, Frightful Aspect
*Optional, Can be swapped for Dragonkind II
**Optional can be swapped For Dragonkind III

Gear: Mithral Breastplate or Mithral Heavy armor, Bastard sword(no shield), +AC items, +Stat items.

Shoutout to Roahin that posted similar build and I postponed making this one for a long time thanks to that, allowing me to focus on others, but I feel like there are some serious differences in feats and spell selection between the two.

I don’t believe in her hitting much with Power Attack+Cornugon Smash and prefer just manually using dazzling. Dreadful Carnage is an option too, but I don’t feel like she lasthits much, unless you constantly babysit her.

The plan is to play her as a standard tank till level 5, switch to Mithral Heavy plate and start casting pretty much the moment you arrive to your capital(presuming you saved up enough cash to buy it), then go for Heart of Valor and Mithral Armor +5 late from the master artisan. You can stick with Heart of Valor for the whole game wtihout much problems if you don't get Mithral heavy +5, it's not a big deal

Has all the spells you would need from arcane caster and can turn into a full fighter with Transformation should you need it. Also has an option to be a dragon Late-game should you reach lvl20,

I would like to give her crane style line, but I can't find 4 feats to toss out.

Hello. :)

I am fairly new to Pathfinder Kingmaker, but have been enjoying your guides so far, thank you. :)

From what I have read, you dont really "like" the arcane trickster, but is their maybe a viable build for a Wizard based trickster as the Main Character?

Thanks for taking the time.

I generally am not too fond of wizards either. They end up as a bad sorcerers in this one as the game does not need versatility - it need specialization. as a nuker glass canon class Arcane Sorcerer far outperforms any wizard(AT or not). Generally AT means ray spam whole game, and no-save AoE spells late(at AT10). Problem is there are close to no classes that do that naturally and you will have to waste 1 level on rogue/vivisectionist. Don't get me wrong, AT is cool on paper with all that damage, but in practice it's an endless slog of casting true strikes and rays.

Guess you can pick any wizard that doesn't have evo, necromancy, and divination blocked and go to town with scorching/hellfire rays. Necro you need for waves of fatigue/exhaustion that are a staple spell for any full arcane caster. That way you at least will be on par with sorcs in spell progression. divination you need for sense vitals. Just don't expect any wonders.

In short, AT generally does not perform as well as it would seem on paper; hence, my distaste for them.
Best application for AT is eldritch scoundrel8/AT10/monk1/something1 or maybe scoundrel4/AT10/M1/EK5 as they get rays, transformation, and no-save aoe spells which is all AT really needs while being decent and melee. basically a bit more caster-oriented Elven Arcane Warrior build of mine that won't be able to hit a broad side of a barn without transformation.

Thank you so much for the reply and the insight.

So, you would recommend a "pure" Sorc Build, if I would want to go for a caster damage dealer?

For pure burst damage with AT shenanigans eldritch scoundrel will probably be better(and more versatile)

Arcane sorc is without contention best glass canon full arcane caster because he actually somewhat reliably beats saves of mobs. Only bad thing about him is he is made of paper, so when wild hunt will begin to teleport behind your back to say "hello" it might become a problem. Only question would be what school of magic to pick. Conjurer with stinking cloud is a nice control and acid is the least resisted element, Evoker would likely go fire, Necromancer would struggle with undead, but otherwise is really good due to the cloak of lost souls(would need at least 16 con though) and good spells that target fort(the weakest save of wild hunt).

Dragon Sorc is reasonably healthy mix of damage and a decent late-game plan with dragonforms(see: But what about Dragons!?)).

Sylvan sorc is the best utility caster. (see: Sylvan Sorcerer )