Of course, lest anyone think that's the only functional rogue type, rogues using more conventional weapons also have advantages. Weapon finesse means you can focus on Dex and get great to-hit and AC, along with the other things rogues get from the stat (and can only be done with smallers weapons). Two weapon fighting is feat heavy but gives you extra chances of sneak attacking, and has most chance of hitting with smaller weapons.

Oh, I don't think anyone would be led to believe it's the only functional Rogue type. ;)

However, I played NWN for a loooong time and must have played a couple hundred different Rogue builds. IMO, STR-based is far superior to the DEX-based Rogue - at least for my play style. There are some advantages to the DEX-based, no question (at very high levels, they'll have a moderate advantage in AC, and some of the Rogue skills are DEX-based so the DEX Rogue will have an overall advantage in those skills). But the STR-based Rogue can also dual wield if desired (15 DEX is all that's necessary to qualify for all the feats), and since you get the STR bonus to damage, you're not crippled as far as damage output goes when you're up against sneak-immune opponents (undead being the most obvious example). As a minor perk, you can also carry more (good for the loot-gathering pack rat that my Rogues are in general).

Just curious what other things you reference that can only be done with smaller weapons?

While going strength-based isn't the only way to build a melee character, it is certainly the most reliable way. The problem with dexterity-based fighting is that your damage output suffers immensely. Sure, you get lots of attacks, but the damage dealt by each hit is hardly impressive. At higher levels when you can afford magical items with significant damage bonuses those two-weapon fighters really start to shine, but at lower levels they have a rough time.

Let's do some math based on a rogue 4 / fighter 1, looking at a hypothetical str-based and dex-based build
* Str-based build has 18 strength, weapon focus and power attack feats, and a +1 greatsword
* Dex-based build has 14 strength / 18 dexterity, weapon finesse / ambidexterity / two weapon fighting feats, and two +1 shortswords

(I chose power attack and weapon focus because they net the same to-hit penalty as the TWF/ambidexterity combo, simplifying the analysis by keeping the accuracy of both characters the same)

Without sneak attack
Strength character: +8 to hit, 2d6+13 damage (15-25, average 20 per hit)
Dexterity character: +8/+8 to hit, 1d6+3 damage (4-9, average 6.5 damage per hit / 13 damage total)

With sneak attacks
Strength character: +8 to hit, 4d6+13 damage (17-37, average 27)
Dex character: +8/+8 to hit, 3d6+3 damage (6-21, average 13.5 per hit / 27 damage total)

That math isn't very good for the dexterity-based character, and it doesn't improve until he gets powerfully enchanted weapons. That strength score is just going to keep increasing on the strength fighter, and when BAB hits +6 his damage output is going to explode, so the dexterity fighter isn't going to catch up without magical assistance. It won't be until the epic levels that he's even remotely comparable to the strength-based fighter against sneak-attack-immune foes.

Again, this isn't to say that it's impossible to play or enjoy dexterity-based characters, but strength-based characters are definitely the more powerful approach.

Sorry, I meant that there are other things a rogue gets from a high dex (like the bonus to skills).

No worries. I was just wondering if there was something I was overlooking with regards to weapons.
That's the damage per hit, but the dual wielder has that extra attack which will hit fairly often as well. This will make the average damage per round slightly higher overall (still not higher than the STR-based though).

Don't get me wrong, I'm not disputing your thesis (I'm all about STR-based myself), but the average output is slightly better for the DEX-based than the per-hit damage analysis shows. Of course, per-hit damage is very significant when it comes to damage reduction, where the DEX-based again is left behind.

It also depends heavily on the magic level.

In the original campaign, if I remember correctly, the best weapons you can find are +3 or so. With that kind of weapon, the damage boost of a greatsword with high strength compared to a shortsword is very significant.

But in Hordes of the Underdark you can get +7-10 weapons that deal +2D6 elemental damage. If each and every attack gives you 9 to 22 bonus damage, having more attacks becomes far more impressive. And that's before you use a scroll to cast flame weapon on your swords and get another 11-14 damage per hit.

All that said, though, I actually prefer a strength-based rogue with a large shield if there's a lot of hack-and-slash combat. With sneak attack, damage output is still good. And you'll get hit a -lot- less. Armour class typically has (up to a point) an increased return on investment the higher it goes. The difference between an enemy hitting you on an 18 and on a 20 is huge. (You get hit 66% less.) This is a much bigger advantage than inflicting 25% more damage, particularly if you end up surrounded by a horde of enemies as always happens in the campaigns. And it saves you money on healing potions.

On one one the high-damage output route tends to be better, particularly if you use knockdown. It's a pity NWN1 doesn't let you unequip the shield and wield a longsword 2-handed like NWN2 does.

Which skills precisely?

Tumble has a flat DC 15 check, which is pretty easy to hit, and the AC bonus only counts ranks and not other sources of bonuses.
Open Locks can be easily supplemented with thieving tools.
Pick Pocket is useless in most campaigns.
Ride is useless in most campaigns

That leaves move silently and hide. If that's the focus of your character then I guess it makes sense, but it's a pretty steep trade.


In hindsight, I realize that +8/+8 may not be sufficiently clear. I'm editing in the extended amounts. The fact remains that the best-case scenario for the TWF only matches the the THF, and if he can't manage perpetual sneak attacks then he's just way behind.


I mentioned this: "At higher levels when you can afford magical items with significant damage bonuses those two-weapon fighters really start to shine, but at lower levels they have a rough time."

Two-weapon fighters can really rock out in epic play, but it's a long time until they get there.

Well, we can't just hand-wave away some skills just because they're not used much in the official campaigns. There are Rogue-oriented modules that use Pick Pocket, and it was quite useful on one of the servers I played as well.

Hide and Move, while they can be superfluous with the use of invisibility, can be useful depending on the module/server.

There's also Set Trap, which I've found to be extremely useful on a couple servers I played, but can be module dependent.

Again, though, much of this can be easily handled by a STR-based Rogue as well. As you noted, with the availability of lock picks along with things like DEX-bosting items as well as potions/scrolls of Cat's Grace (not to mention the possible investment in skill-boosting feats), the STR-based Rogue can get along just fine in the skill department.

While that's true, if you need specific allowances on the part of the module designer to make a skill useful then the skill has serious problems. This is an issue with the conversation skills (only as useful as the designer makes them) but most modules do go out of their way to make those useful. Pick pockets needs the same level of attention of the designer, but seldom gets it.

Indeed; it would be a different matter if the strength rogue was actually incapable of doing these things, but he's just fine. Dexterity-based rogues are certainly playable, but their advantages of strength-based are either circumstantial or minor, while the strength-based character's key advantage (combat power) is exceedingly noticeable.