Hey everybody,
after just a few hours of gameplay this may be a cry for help or rather an explanation:

I loved MM6 as a child but didn't get anything; it was far too complicated, the world too big and I couldn't understand what really matters. Over the past few years I played through the whole game like 3-4 times, really enjoying the experience and having craaaazy nostalgic feelings, also at some point crushing the mobs; last playthrough felt more like a speedrun.

A few weeks ago I finally decided to get MM7 thinking that even without having any memories of this game it will probably be good since a lot seemed pretty much the same (styles, combat system, the way skill learning works etc).


The first negative thing for me started already when building the party:

While the addition of the gradnmaster level was super interesting I instantly hated the fact that not everybody could master (or grandmaster) a skill. While this may make sense in that for example alchemy is determined to be mastered by mages I dislike that this makes the game, especially for first timers, extremely more complex since I don't want to waste points or get experts levels for characters that won't be able to master the skill later; meaning I have to take so much care and checking before deciding who is going to learn a skill. :/ (the addition of GMs still is great)


Next things I noticed were some questionable design decisions:

- the 'currently active party member'-indicator, the beloved yellow ring(s), are really easy to miss out. I don't think I have any trouble seeing different colors or whatever but I always catch myself searching for the currently active character which as you know is often very important: using quick spell (paladins HEAL or mages METEOR?), opening a chest with the char with disarm trap skill and more. To me this really is an extreme pain and kills for me a lot of comfort and fun. This was way better in MM6 since the color palette there around the chars face is all gray

- the spell book you use when casting a spell. Again, coming from MM6 where you have the spells in a nice order and directly see what they are about (cause they are not "grayed out") it is kinda awful in MM7. When I open the spellbook first thing I do is searching the spells. What the heck!? For me it was so much faster to see/recognize the spells in MM6. Of course, it was so much different in clearer.


Ok so 3 negative points for me. It's not unplayable but I really hate playing the game like that, though the game has a few interesting changes with the NPCs fighting monsters, addition of grandmasters, of course new monsters, better animations, a few beautiful design updates and probably a lot more. But at this moment I feel like getting my money back.

If anybody really reads through all of that: please reply. Call me a crybaby or strengthen my view on those things, or maybe suggest me to do something about it. Really appreciate any response on that topic.

Thank you and have a nice day!

I'm in the opposite view from you. I love MM7 more than I like MM6. I prefer that everyone can't master everything. It just makes more sense to me. Can it be annoying? Sure. You can make the game as easy or as hard as you want depending on your team with the skill limits. 6 still has that but to a far less degree. As for the HUD, I've never had a problem with it, but again I've played this one before 6 and a lot more often.

I'm definitely not going to call you a crybaby over having a valid yet differing opinion on something. If the games not for you then so be it. I would say give it a chance to see if it grows on you, but at the end of the day it's your free time/enjoyment that matters.

You have a great day, too!

I like the skill mastery limits. In MM6, class selection nearly felt cosmetic, while in MM7 character class selection matters a lot. You can have a different experience based on which character classes you choose for a given run. Will you aim for grandmastery specialists, or will you sacrifice that for characters that have a wider range of options? Will you take the Ranger, who has by far the easiest first promotion but is only good for swinging an axe, or will you take a useful character class?

It is worthwhile to find a skill chart (this is a good one) and plan out your party skills in advance.

Simplest suggestion for party construction: Just use the default party. There are some changes that would (in my opinion) optimize the party slightly better (ex. start the Cleric with Spirit Magic instead of Alchemy), but the most important thing (class selection) is already set for you in a good manner. The easiest customization option would be to select a Paladin instead of a Knight, since both can Grandmaster Repair Item. A Knight has more offense from dual wielding weapons, while a Paladin is Mace + Shield with eventual Mastery of the Self magics to back up the Cleric.

Be aware that you can right click + hold over a skill on the skill screen to see what mastery that character can reach. White means they can learn it if they meet the teacher's pre-reqs, yellow means they need a promotion (or two) before being able to reach that mastery, while red means they'll never reach that level of mastery.

The default party gives you GM Self, Elemental, Light/Dark, Disarm Trap, Id Item, Repair Item, Id Monster, and M Perception and Alchemy. It also allows you to use a wide range of weapons (sword, spear, dagger, mace, and staff) so you can use the best stuff you find, and it spreads out the armor preferences (plate, 2 leather, and chain).

The major skill point plateaus are 4, 7, and 10 for Expert, Master, and Grandmaster respectively. A few skills have some other requirements to learn a particular level of mastery (GM Merchant requires a certain minimum value in Personality), but these aren't a serious obstacle by the time you can reach GM. I've never had a problem with this, though I can see why someone might. I can see some difference between MM6 and MM7 now that it has been pointed out, but the difference isn't that great to my eyes. The best I can say is "give it time to acclimate".

Speaking for myself: if I'm fighting in real time, then I don't really care who the active character is, I'm just holding down 'A' for arrow spam or 'S' for spell spam (or arrows if a quick spell isn't set) while I'm moving around. Targeted spells (ex. Heal or Incinerate) will pause the action so I can use the mouse to pick out my target while non-targeted spells will pick the closest relevant target (ex. Meteor Shower) or everyone in view (Power Cure, Inferno). If I'm not in real time combat, then I have time to make sure I have the right character active.

For particular activities, you could try making a habit of hitting the number keys for 1-4, based on which character you want active at the moment (for example, hitting '2' to select the default Thief before you try to open a chest). This isn't perfect, since a character that gets hit loses a little bit of time (and the active character will change if the active character is the one that got hit). There isn't much to say here either, just another point of acclimatization. I like the order that the MM6 method provides (especially when trying to identify how many spells I'm missing), but I admit that the MM7 method feels a little more alive for its chaos.

When trying to figure out what/how many spells you're missing, be aware that there are 4 Basic spells, 3 Expert spells, 3 Master spells, and 1 Grandmaster spell in each magic type. 11 spells in total, 10 for M, 7 for E, and 4 for Basic.

Wow. Thank you for that extremely detailed and neutral comment plus all the clarifications; a part of your tips were already known to me, especially everything about "fast" playstyle with keyboard shortcuts and stuff like that (all from MM6, glad they kept it).

I will give this game a few more hours and then eventually decide wether I can oversee my (personal) pains with it :)

Thanks again!

I enjoy the game a lot, so I do hope you come to like it. Good luck either way, though.

Yeah you don't have to be GrandMaster, that's why I love MM7 (and maybe the sole MM I like),
for you can play hybrid classes, and the game becomes even more fun.

With GM specialists (Mage+Cleric+Fighter+Thief), the game feels boring, at least for my taste.
My squad is Ranger+Paladin+Archer+Monk

well I did read through all that shit and what it sounds like is that you have old man syndrome, of course everything in MM6 will seem a lot more clear to you as it is a game you've played since you were a kid and getting used to new shit might seem quite difficult. personally I don't think its harder to pilot MM7 but that might be because I have the same old man syndrome for that game.

I'm assuming the class restrictions on GM skills were created to promote more diverse parties rather than you just running 4 of the same class for optimal comp. less restrictions is fine but at the same time some restrictions can promote more fun gameplay and actually having to make decisions.

I do recommend you play MM7 and 8 but I can promise you that you'll be super triggered once you pick the dark / light path lmao

Im the same way, once I find a game I like, seeing changes in the sequels gets on my nerves. I dont have old man syndrome in that I did not play MM until 7 years ago. I like VI a lot more, but thats me, I find something I like I often would rather replay that game then play a sequel that makes some changes. Especially with VI being so gigantic. That said, VII is great and feels more focused. My main complaint with it was the world didnt feel as epic, the dungeons were smaller, and some of the maps were pretty weak, IMHO.

I feel that the skill mastery changes from 6 was a good idea with bad execution. MM6 had a big problem in that magic users were just so much stronger than might users. In order to fix this they made every non-magic skill stronger by adding grandmastery and every magic skill weaker by preventing mages from casting spells of a higher quality than their mastery. (They also added armsmaster which empowered melee a lot)

This worked, but the problem was the hybrid classes and reallty any class that was not among the four in the default party. Hybrids are bad all along the board (Well, Archer are OK.) Rangers are ENDLESS TRASH. Druids look useable but are bad outside of the early game. Their one special ability GM alchemy comes online so late that it does not mater. I'm told that monks can be good, but I dont know how.

Anything a paladin can do a knight does better. Because the limited magic and GM plate it gets in no way makes up for the reduced damage output.

Now MM7 had some other problems that were much more important in my book. Like the reduced colour pallet, the worse enemy shading and the fact that the dungeons were just so much smaller and less interesting.

MM7 was my first MM game and i liked it, completed whole game.
Now i started MM9 and im liking it so far.

Monks are a fun option ... they are very good with unarmed combat and dodging, especially at GM Dodging when he can wear Leather Armor. And because they have (I believe) no recovery penalty from armor (at least, by the time he/she reaches Master Leather). Except GM Mace allows the Paladin to paralyze opponents, which is often very handy.

When I tried to make a might party in MM6 that could keep up with the spell casters. I found that the best weapons by far were spears because of their high damage and fast attack delay. (80) If you are using the greyface patch then daggers and swords become viable if you dual wield them.

I also found that Plate was a trap. You dont need it and it adds too much to your attack delay. (+30!) You cant set a character to tank in these games, so having much higher armor class than the sorcerer or the cleric does not make any sense. You could not get rid of the attack delay on plates completely, but you could do that on leather or chain.

So a paladin, knight or archer in leather and dual-wielding a spear was the ultimate melee combo.

This is because every bit of reduced attack-delay gets more powerful the more you have. Compare a new knight with plate, an axe and a shield. Thats 100+30+10 = 140 attack delay. A new knight with lether and a spear has 80 + 10 =90 delay. The spear guy will get 1.56 times more attacks per time and each will do more damage. Its possible that he will do twice the damage and inflict more hit stun on an enemy.

In the late game with spells and items the spear guy can get down to about 40 attack delay. The axe guy will be lucky to get more than 60 attack delay. 70 if he still use a shield. Thats 60/40 = 1.5 or 70/40 = 1.75 times faster for the spear. The spear also gets bonus damage and AC from mastery at this point.

Same with MM7. I much prefer the extra speed and damage from two swords or a spear than the late game chance to paralyse with a plate/mace guy. Even if the mace might be good enough to catch up towards the very end of the game. (I dont know the chance of paralyze.)

well archers are quite good if you have a party focused on ranged combat, a single monk is very good with a might party as well since hands of the master is just insane, most of the time unarmed ain't worth using before you hit GM in it though so monks are just budget knights early on but get very strong later on. druids are good just a weird fit into most parties, a good druid party would consist of like 3 druids and an archer or monk / knight?

I'm starting to agree with this. My current game is D/S/S/C, intending to go Dark ... but I wish I had brought a Thief instead of a Druid ... opening chests is pretty damn impossible without a major explosion, which limits my ability to get good loot. I am strongly considering abandoning the game and starting over with T/S/S/C ... too bad I cannot edit the current game, as I am otherwise enjoying it.