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Amazing dedication Rocco!

De-lurking after years for a more personal question. Do you have any final objective of sorts with this work, a day when you'll consider it "done"?
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Arnuz: Amazing dedication Rocco!

De-lurking after years for a more personal question. Do you have any final objective of sorts with this work, a day when you'll consider it "done"?
Not sure if it will ever be really, fully, finally done.

We still have a wishlist containing dozens of items, described over 40 pages, ranging from minor bugs still in the game to larger projects about changes in mechanics. And I guess we'd stop development sooner due to losing interest and/or fun than MOO2 being officially declared "perfect game".

Having said that, 1.50.15 is a very solid release that should be able to last a long time (until disproved by user bug reporting).
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Rocco.40: Not sure if it will ever be really, fully, finally done.

We still have a wishlist containing dozens of items, described over 40 pages, ranging from minor bugs still in the game to larger projects about changes in mechanics. And I guess we'd stop development sooner due to losing interest and/or fun than MOO2 being officially declared "perfect game".

Having said that, 1.50.15 is a very solid release that should be able to last a long time (until disproved by user bug reporting).
Great!

Where's the wishlist, for curiosity? Do you have a git or something similar?
Also are there discussions anywhere on design choices?
Post edited July 25, 2019 by Arnuz
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Arnuz: Great!

Where's the wishlist, for curiosity? Do you have a git or something similar?
Also are there discussions anywhere on design choices?
That doc hasnt been made public, and there is no public git for the patch.
There's one for the MOO2 Launcher program tho (https://github.com/user7/moo2-launcher).
Master of Orion's continuous modding (as long as, say, Master of Magic's) after so many years is the best proof of greatness of good old games.

Thanks a lot for your dedication.
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Taybius_oMort: Master of Orion's continuous modding (as long as, say, Master of Magic's) after so many years is the best proof of greatness of good old games.

Thanks a lot for your dedication.
Your welcome,, on behalf of Alex & myself.
Hey Rocco, I'm assuming you are part of the 1.50 project and ICE mod teams, I'm a big fan.

I have a couple questions and suggestions. I'm not sure whether these fit into 1.50 or ICE better but here goes:

1. Have you thought about maybe reverting the maintenance penalties for the different planets back to normal, since I think it makes more sense that toxic planets (according to the original MoO2 manual) are basically planets with acidic atmospheres and acid rains etc, so it would make sense why perhaps those planets would need significantly more maintenance compared to radiated planets that have to deal with some damage from radiation unless there's like a literal solar storm happening. Desert planets needing maintenance because of sand storms but barren ones not makes sense, because there is no atmosphere on a barren planet so there should be no sand storms there either because there is no wind.

2. Have you thought about giving some sort of penalty for tundra planets since currently they are simply better as far as I know than desert planets, since desert planets have the maintenance penalty but otherwise identical stats with tundra worlds? Perhaps lowering the population limit on tundra worlds is one way of making them have a different drawback when compared to desert worlds?

3. My impression is that default races that have a dictatorship form of government are probably weaker than the other races because there is no clear advantage in anything since their form of government does not specialize in anything. I was wondering if you could try and make the marine barracks and armor barracks both give a +10 morale bonus in the same way that holo-simulator and other morale bonus buildings do, but only for dictatorships (allowing dictatorships to reach +10 morale with just an armor barracks+marine barracks and no other bonuses). This way there would be a point to research armor barracks and use it more often while allowing dictatorships to need automated factories slightly less perhaps as well, the morale bonus gives even more flexibility, which is arguably the only potential strength of a dictatorship, since morale affects tax income, farming, production and research right? (kinda why a farming bonus is so strong also since you would only put as few people into farming as possible for avoiding famine, freeing up farmers for production or research, resulting in the same kind of flexibility)

4. I'm not sure what the intention was in removing MIRV for nuclear missiles but I was wondering if you could try reverting that but making MIRV and EMG mutually exclusive for all missiles. The reason is that I think missiles are still ridiculously overpowered with EMG (I killed the guardian in ICE-X with mediocre battleships by self-destructing one battleship next to the guardian, depleting its shield on that side, then parking another battleship in the same spot and firing several EMG merculite missiles into it, destroying it.) This way EMG missiles would be twice as costly, not to mention that MIRV missiles don't even attack the four different sides of a ship when its shields are up (or those might have been MIRV EMG, can't actually remember, I think I remember reading that MIRV missiles were intended to be enveloping instead of hitting the same face of the ship four times so this might be worth looking into...)
If nuclear missiles are still too overpowered with just MIRV alone, maybe you could make anti-missile rockets take up a lot less space or make them cause a certain amount of damage that is very likely to destroy nuclear missiles but not other missiles while being very likely to hit them, or some other combination.

I appreciate the hard work and effort and I can't wait to hear whether you think my ideas have any merit, and for feedback. Thanks.
Post edited August 28, 2019 by Jonttu
"could try and make the marine barracks and armor barracks both give a +10 morale bonus in the same way that holo-simulator and other morale bonus buildings do, but only for dictatorships"

If this would come true, then I suggest slightly increasing the cost for AV barracks at least in the improved version (vanilla +) which is what I mostly play as I play MoO2 when I want to relax (sim...). Actually, you could raise the price for the AV barracks in 1.50 Improved anyway, just a tad (10 more?).

"morale affects tax income, farming, production and research right?"
Yes, all four, which is why dictatorships get really strong late in game when most games would already be over, if played to win. Everything boosted by 100% makes for a powerful empire, except they have usually been defeated before they reach that point.
Post edited August 29, 2019 by Themken
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Themken: "could try and make the marine barracks and armor barracks both give a +10 morale bonus in the same way that holo-simulator and other morale bonus buildings do, but only for dictatorships"

If this would come true, then I suggest slightly increasing the cost for AV barracks at least in the improved version (vanilla +) which is what I mostly play as I play MoO2 when I want to relax (sim...). Actually, you could raise the price for the AV barracks in 1.50 Improved anyway, just a tad (10 more?).

"morale affects tax income, farming, production and research right?"
Yes, all four, which is why dictatorships get really strong late in game when most games would already be over, if played to win. Everything boosted by 100% makes for a powerful empire, except they have usually been defeated before they reach that point.
I'm thinking more maybe of changing these things in either ICE or ICE and 1.50 improved.

Yea true, morale bonuses add up a lot later on but (other) morale bonuses add up for democracy/federation and feudal/confederation too in the same way.
Also sorry for being a nuisance in the backside but I also have a couple other ideas, if Rocco or anyone else is interested in experimenting with them:

5. I was thinking of making bombs worthwhile in any stage of the game by either increasing the armor of planetary defenses (missile bases, fighter garrisons etc.) significantly, that would increase further with each armor upgrade, or increasing their hitpoints while also increasing the damage of bombs, if needed, to such a degree that you would actually want to build dedicated bombers (which ties to my next idea...)

6. I think it would be cool if the following changes were made to the following ship classses:

Frigate: Same amount of hitpoints as with a destroyer
Destroyer: Same combat speed as with a frigate
Cruiser: Same amount of hitpoints as with a battleship, but with also the same combat speed as with a battleship

With these changes Frigates and destroyers would have more use and could potentially serve as dedicated bomber ships since they can get right next to a planet much faster than bigger ships would, and both cruisers and frigates would be tougher than before, while still lacking the versatility and the more efficient use of command points of their bigger counterpart, but maybe being more worthwhile than before during a brief time window or a time when you need to be able to quickly build and bring new ships into a critical engagement.
I use frigates and destroyers quite a bit early in the game.
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Jonttu: Hey Rocco, [...]
Hey and thanks for all the feedback.
Here's my thoughts:

1. I haven't considered reverting back to classic, coz I am liking maintance the way it is now. About Barren, if you say there is no atmosphere there, then I'd say that should increase maintance, for all the checks needed and repairs done to keep the infrastructure airtight. A costly affair imo.

2. What sets Tundra apart from a Desert is that it gives a substantial advantage to Aquatic races.

3. Idea of giving both barracks separate morale boni has been floating around at some point. But it's not a big ticket item. Rather, if any modding done in this department, I'd go for making possible some form of Tank Transport instead of regular Troop Transport ship if the colony has Armor Barracks.

4. The intention of removing MIRV from nukes was to make make this weapon less potent. And to make it harder to take down monsters, without buffing monsters further themselves. Taking the Guardian with EMG is a known way to beat it early*. In some earlier versions of ICE, EMG was placed higher in the tech tree and the Guardian had WAJ instead of MW ECM Jammer, but these changes have been reverted since I didnt want to close this funky road to victory. Btw, afaik MIRV was not intended to be enveloping.
*edit: since you need at least Pulson missile to beat the Guardian in ICE, it's markedly less 'early' than in classic.

5. Such modding was done in the "Defensive Anti-Blitz mod", which can be found on moo2mod.
In ICE, planet defenses hits have been increased by 20%.

6. Depth386 mod (available on civfanatics forum) and VDC mod (included in 1.50) have very different approaches to ship size class stats. Perhaps it's interesting for you to check out how those modes handle it.

Allright, just a few notes back from my side, again thanks for all your feedbacks, it's inspiring to know that people are still playing this old gem and thinking about improvements and changes to the game!
Post edited September 03, 2019 by Rocco.40
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Jonttu: Hey Rocco, [...]
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Rocco.40: Hey and thanks for all the feedback.
Here's my thoughts:

1. I haven't considered reverting back to classic, coz I am liking maintance the way it is now. About Barren, if you say there is no atmosphere there, then I'd say that should increase maintance, for all the checks needed and repairs done to keep the infrastructure airtight. A costly affair imo.

2. What sets Tundra apart from a Desert is that it gives a substantial advantage to Aquatic races.

3. Idea of giving both barracks separate morale boni has been floating around at some point. But it's not a big ticket item. Rather, if any modding done in this department, I'd go for making possible some form of Tank Transport instead of regular Troop Transport ship if the colony has Armor Barracks.

4. The intention of removing MIRV from nukes was to make make this weapon less potent. And to make it harder to take down monsters, without buffing monsters further themselves. Taking the Guardian with EMG is a known way to beat it early. In some earlier versions of ICE, EMG was placed higher in the tech tree and the Guardian had WAJ instead of MW ECM Jammer, but these changes have been reverted since I didnt want to close this funky road to victory. Btw, afaik MIRV was not intended to be enveloping.

5. Such modding was done in the "Defensive Anti-Blitz mod", which can be found on moo2mod.
In ICE, planet defenses hits have been increased by 20%.

6. Depth386 mod (available on civfanatics forum) and VDC mod (included in 1.50) have very different approaches to ship size class stats. Perhaps it's interesting for you to check out how those modes handle it.

Allright, just a few notes back from my side, again thanks for all your feedbacks, it's inspiring to know that people are still playing this old gem and thinking about improvements and changes to the game!
Damn I just spent a long time writing a long ass post and sent it and it just didnt appear here... .................................................. Maybe I'll rewrite it sometime again but thanks for the reply anyways.
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Jonttu: Damn I just spent a long time writing a long ass post and sent it and it just didnt appear here... .................................................. Maybe I'll rewrite it sometime again but thanks for the reply anyways.
Always copy your meaningful text somewhere till you see it appear in thread, GOG forum engine is shit and disaster.

On a brighter side: you can already introduce most of your ideas posted here into some mode of your, using 1.50's capabilities. Thought it will be technically a waste of time, regarding changes per se; it could be a good learning practice for Config managing.
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Jonttu: Hey Rocco, [...]
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Rocco.40: Hey and thanks for all the feedback.
Here's my thoughts:

1. I haven't considered reverting back to classic, coz I am liking maintance the way it is now. About Barren, if you say there is no atmosphere there, then I'd say that should increase maintance, for all the checks needed and repairs done to keep the infrastructure airtight. A costly affair imo.

2. What sets Tundra apart from a Desert is that it gives a substantial advantage to Aquatic races.

3. Idea of giving both barracks separate morale boni has been floating around at some point. But it's not a big ticket item. Rather, if any modding done in this department, I'd go for making possible some form of Tank Transport instead of regular Troop Transport ship if the colony has Armor Barracks.

4. The intention of removing MIRV from nukes was to make make this weapon less potent. And to make it harder to take down monsters, without buffing monsters further themselves. Taking the Guardian with EMG is a known way to beat it early*. In some earlier versions of ICE, EMG was placed higher in the tech tree and the Guardian had WAJ instead of MW ECM Jammer, but these changes have been reverted since I didnt want to close this funky road to victory. Btw, afaik MIRV was not intended to be enveloping.
*edit: since you need at least Pulson missile to beat the Guardian in ICE, it's markedly less 'early' than in classic.

5. Such modding was done in the "Defensive Anti-Blitz mod", which can be found on moo2mod.
In ICE, planet defenses hits have been increased by 20%.

6. Depth386 mod (available on civfanatics forum) and VDC mod (included in 1.50) have very different approaches to ship size class stats. Perhaps it's interesting for you to check out how those modes handle it.

Allright, just a few notes back from my side, again thanks for all your feedbacks, it's inspiring to know that people are still playing this old gem and thinking about improvements and changes to the game!
1., 2. True but then on the other hand toxic has a... toxic atmosphere anyways that you would want to keep out anyways, and afaik barren has a lower pop limit than tundra and desert anyways, so it has a drawback already, which you could imagine is related to the lack of an atmosphere and how they have to keep all the facilities airtight.

Regarding tundra and desert, yea I guess it's a matter of if you want to make aquatic more or less useful. On the other hand tundra is still more useful even for non-aquatic races.

3. Ok.

4. Well that's funny since I did manage to kill the guardian in ICE-X with emg or mirv+emg merculite missiles, I just sacrificed a battleship by self destructing it next to the guardian on one side, depleting its shield on that side, and then parking another battleship in the same spot and destroying it with it alone. So at least I didn't need pulson missiles there.

On the other hand the very fact that you allow "funky" ways to get ahead in the game, and take advantage of these "imbalances" in the game, is one of the things that isn't my cup of tea but I understand.

5. I'd be interested to hear if there's like a rundown of the stat changes in that mod compared to original/1.50/ICE

6. Wasn't able to find depth386 and VDC has some good ideas, but there are some things that I kind of dislike about it.
Again it's hard to get a big picture or some kind of list as to how each patch differs from the original/1.50/ICE stats-wise, and also the other thing is that it's a lot more chaotic than your patches when it comes to minor details (ingame text formatting, lack of up-to-date or relevant info in text boxes) and the difficulty in figuring out just what kind of elements and what kinds of settings are in use in the different VDC modes or mods and maps.

Some examples are:
-The antarans would literally attack somebody every 2 or 3 turns.
-I would get phasor from a random event (crashed alien ship tech retrieval GNN news thing) in like the turn 70 (!)
-I would be unable to use the report function on other races. What's up with that? :D (though that brings me to a point about an idea I had regarding that, I will talk about it later on in the post.) I would also not be able to demand tech or exchange tech when I'm the one to initiate the request. They would be able to ask for tech from me in exchange for some of theirs as usual.

Some other things I kind of disliked are just some of the changes like an AI's rock-eating humans (lithovore), which might have been just a custom race thing, though I did play that game on average so I dunno if that's possible...
Another thing is the fact, understandable, but kind of unimmersive is how the different techs are all over the place in different fields (buildings that have more to do with biology in power etc.) and there is no believable lore-related naming of the different tech levels or whatever they're called.

Some changes I did like, like Meklars that can benefit more from their +2 production by being tolerant but on the other hand having -0.5 tax, and thus being more suited for a race that doesn't build lots of planetary buildings that help with fp/pp/rp or defense but instead has to rely on a bigger or better fleet and aggression compared to a typical race.

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Anyways I've been thinking about whether it's possible to mod the game in such a way that there would be two drastic gameplay-affecting changes to the game that would get rid of two core elements from the management-side of the game entirely.

The changes would be that population growth would be flat regardless of the amount of population on a planet, and the other that production stockpiling wouldn't be a thing at all.
With these two changes to dumb-down the management (at least the micromanagement) of the game, the game would probably become more strategic, for example if you couldn't just suddenly switch what you're building into something totally different such as a battleship, 1 turn before it would be too late to get the finished battleship to intercept an enemy attacking a system of yours for example. Instead you would have to figure out and anticipate how strong of a ship you need at a given moment in time into the future.
At the same time, the dumbing-down of population growth and removal of production stockpiling would make turns faster and less about micromanagement for optimal performance, which is exactly what I would like, and would again make the game more about strategy rather than management. It is a bit like choosing between the two sometimes, and this is what I would prefer.

Edit: I guess I could also add that you should be able to cancel building one thing and start building another, so switching would be allowed but you would not be able to transfer the pp stockpile into that new thing that you're building from what you were building prior to the switch and thus losing the pp's (the stockpile) that you gained so far building the previous thing, unless perhaps you switch back to building the thing you were building prior to the switch during the same turn.

Also since it seems to be possible to disable the report function in the races screen, like I mentioned before, it would be pretty cool if instead you would need a certain amount of spies (espionage, sabotage or hide) in an enemy empire to be able to get a report from them. I also remember reading in the report screen's info (by right clicking) perhaps when using ICE mod, that there was supposed to be a date or age of the report item of some sort on the report window. Maybe that thing could be activated, and the number of spies you have in said empire determines how often you get a new report (every 10 turns for 1 spy, 5 for 2 or every turn for 3 spies for example.) I think there is one unused text box on the left side of that screen anyways that was probably intended for showing the date of the report anyways, who knows. Maybe you can request tech exchange or demand tech that you can see in the report. So for example if the report is 10 turns old, you can only request tech that they had at that point. I'm not sure how this could be done for the AI if one wanted (well I want to make AI opponents as human-like as possible), maybe it could be made the same for AI, that they could only request tech that they know you have based on the date of the report, so for example if they have 2 spies (espionage, sabotage or hide) in your empire, they would be able request a tech exchange/demand a tech that they know you have had for 5 turns at least.

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Jonttu: Damn I just spent a long time writing a long ass post and sent it and it just didnt appear here... .................................................. Maybe I'll rewrite it sometime again but thanks for the reply anyways.
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DarzaR: Always copy your meaningful text somewhere till you see it appear in thread, GOG forum engine is shit and disaster.

On a brighter side: you can already introduce most of your ideas posted here into some mode of your, using 1.50's capabilities. Thought it will be technically a waste of time, regarding changes per se; it could be a good learning practice for Config managing.
gotcha.
Post edited September 09, 2019 by Jonttu