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C17: For all we know the steam version could include GFWL, unless they have specifically stated otherwise.
I don't think so. The game will already use Steamworks features such as Workshop. I have never seen a game that is both Steamworks and GFWL.
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C17: For all we know the steam version could include GFWL, unless they have specifically stated otherwise.
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Neobr10: I don't think so. The game will already use Steamworks features such as Workshop. I have never seen a game that is both Steamworks and GFWL.
Well that is good, but like hedwards said its interesting that they wanted DRM but didn't push GFWL? And then add the fact that they haven't had to use Steam Greenlight from what I can tell... could imply that they new about the contractual obligations for quite some time. Which obviously doesn't help the matter in any way.
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Neobr10: I don't think so. The game will already use Steamworks features such as Workshop. I have never seen a game that is both Steamworks and GFWL.
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C17: Well that is good, but like hedwards said its interesting that they wanted DRM but didn't push GFWL? And then add the fact that they haven't had to use Steam Greenlight from what I can tell... could imply that they new about the contractual obligations for quite some time. Which obviously doesn't help the matter in any way.
I wouldn't expect Steam + GFWL, but it does seem a bit odd that MS wouldn't be requiring their own DRM to be used, and throwing it in with the licensing agreement.
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C17: Well that is good, but like hedwards said its interesting that they wanted DRM but didn't push GFWL? And then add the fact that they haven't had to use Steam Greenlight from what I can tell... could imply that they new about the contractual obligations for quite some time. Which obviously doesn't help the matter in any way.
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hedwards: I wouldn't expect Steam + GFWL, but it does seem a bit odd that MS wouldn't be requiring their own DRM to be used, and throwing it in with the licensing agreement.
There are games sold on Steam that require GfWL but still allow a Steam overlay (of course, that may work with almost any game added to Steam, dunno), Iron Brigade is one example, but they'll all happily launch without Steam, I think Steam just sells you the keys for the download, you still have to register the keys with GfWL.
Post edited April 18, 2013 by orcishgamer
I'm pretty sure MS knows GFWL, as it currently exists, is dead. Look at Age of Empires 2 HD, no GFWL involved at all, it's Steamworks.
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StingingVelvet: I'm pretty sure MS knows GFWL, as it currently exists, is dead. Look at Age of Empires 2 HD, no GFWL involved at all, it's Steamworks.
I was about to mention AOE2 HD. It even uses Steam WOrkshop, just like Shadowrun.
Microsoft have confirmed that GFWL is dead. Don't have a link handy.
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Neobr10: How is that offensive? So SURPRISE is now an offense? Or "for fuck's sake"? I mean, really? Maybe i should have been a bit more polite, but i don't really see it as offensive in any way. It wasn't even directly targeted at anyone. Who did i insult? Whats so harmful about my post?

You see, this is exactly what i'm talking about. Posts like mine are offensive for expressing a different opinion. Posts explicitly offensive with name-calling targeted at one user aren't. Can you see the double standards that i'm pointing out? Calling someone a fanboy for pointing out that Steam doesn't bribe every single developer in the world is ok, but expressing a valid opinion about the issue isn't.
For fuck's sake, let's be realistic for a minute, shall we? Any sane person admits that what the kickstarters did was wrong, and people are rightfully angry about it.

Just expressing a different opinion here... ;^P

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_Bruce_: Microsoft have confirmed that GFWL is dead. Don't have a link handy.
"Dead" as in "GFWL authentication servers will be put down", or "we will not be releasing more games with GFWL"?

Does this cause problems to any existing GFWL games? I know with many you can make a offline account (as long as you find the option hidden there somewhere), so I presume those are safe. How about games like Gears of War?
Post edited April 19, 2013 by timppu
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KyleKatarn: An example, a user posts that he/she got a refund and the first response is "The monsters!" trying to make him/her look like an idiot for doing so. I personally am not going to ask for a refund for reasons I've already stated, plus there isn't an easy way to get refunded from what I've seen and other users experiences, like hedwards.
Then it came out wrong, and it was not my intention at all. I meant - first complaining how bad this situation is, and how much vitriol and discussion coming out of this, very much blaming the developers and there are post here on how terrible they are, when all is needed it just asking for your money back. All I was trying to say is, maybe this is not such a big issue after all and if you do not like the way it turned, it is easily remedied. That do not mean "you are idiots and you are idiots for asking a refund". I tried humor, and I know I am very bad with it and should stop doing so, sorry.

edit - but all that said. I am genuinely interested in how many people in the end will actually claim a refund. It would be interesting for later to see the % for whom the DRM issue is actually so big, that they can not get over it when it comes to a game they really want enough to back on KS. Also to see which tiers they have pledged on. (This is just my curiosity, and there are no value judgments attached to this). I doubt these figures will ever be released, though.
Post edited April 19, 2013 by amok
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timppu: "Dead" as in "GFWL authentication servers will be put down", or "we will not be releasing more games with GFWL"?
The latter (for now).
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timppu: "Dead" as in "GFWL authentication servers will be put down", or "we will not be releasing more games with GFWL"?

Does this cause problems to any existing GFWL games? I know with many you can make a offline account (as long as you find the option hidden there somewhere), so I presume those are safe. How about games like Gears of War?
There are no new GFWL games, not even from Microsoft themselves. Windows 8/RT use an unrelated implementation called Xbox Games on Windows.

GFWL still shares the same backend as other Xbox services so it will probably stick around for some time yet. The original Xbox stayed online until 2010, and that was a deprecated infrastructure.

Local profiles work for any GFWL game that isn't multiplayer-only and/or always online (as with Age of Empires Online) but I don't know the details of what games require online activation or whatever before you can play offline.
Post edited April 19, 2013 by Arkose
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amok: edit - but all that said. I am genuinely interested in how many people in the end will actually claim a refund. It would be interesting for later to see the % for whom the DRM issue is actually so big, that they can not get over it when it comes to a game they really want enough to back on KS. Also to see which tiers they have pledged on. (This is just my curiosity, and there are no value judgments attached to this). I doubt these figures will ever be released, though.
My understanding is that you don't care about the DRM-freeness of games, so why would that data interest you? I hope not just as ammunition for internet argument against people who do care. :)
Post edited April 19, 2013 by timppu
Got a reply during the night. They'd prefer to refund me on Paypal so I gave them my Paypal email. I assume the payment will go through some time tomorrow.

Considering Amazon payments took 5% and then Kickstarter took another 5% they are now loosing some money. Hope they learn a lesson. Microsoft requiring DRM being mentioned only in KS update number 50 when the game is almost done was bullshit and they deserve the backlash they got.
Post edited April 19, 2013 by Aningan
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amok: edit - but all that said. I am genuinely interested in how many people in the end will actually claim a refund. It would be interesting for later to see the % for whom the DRM issue is actually so big, that they can not get over it when it comes to a game they really want enough to back on KS. Also to see which tiers they have pledged on. (This is just my curiosity, and there are no value judgments attached to this). I doubt these figures will ever be released, though.
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timppu: My understanding is that you don't care of DRM-freeness of games, so why would that data interest you? I hope not just as ammunition for internet argument against people who do care. :)
You are right I do not care much about DRM (as long as it is not draconian and intrusive), but I am interested in a lot of things just for its own sake. I find things fascinating. In this case it is not so much about DRM or not, but in the way people behaves. There will be something telling about people's behaviour in the way this created a bit of an uproar, and there is now an option to deal with it, granted that they must then restrain from something they potentially would like to have. It is this aspect which interest me most here, not the DRM issue. Does it make sense?

(Off course there will be way too little data from this to make any conclusions, but still, it would have been potentially very interesting to see the raw data)
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amok: You are right I do not care much about DRM (as long as it is not draconian and intrusive)
I have to mention here that I am exactly like you there. I don't mind DRM that is not draconian and intrusive.

So DRM like CD-keys for online play I'm pretty fine with, while the game requiring me to authenticate it (at least the single-player part) to some central server which might or might not be there in the future I find somewhat draconian and intrusive.

Other than that, I'm quite fine with DRM. I don't care how many multiplayer CD keys the game comes with as long as I can play it, so I'm overall pretty cool with DRM. I guess.

;)
Post edited April 19, 2013 by timppu