It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
orcishgamer: Don't worry, I already beat ya to it;)
No, i did, look at the downrepped post in the first page.
low rated
avatar
Kaldurenik: ... Kickstarter is here to help devs or people make the game they want to make by giving them founds. In short one could say that they took parts of the kickstarter money and then said "we will make a dlc with this" And yes i know people that BACKED the project will get the DLC. However people back projects because they want to see it being made. They want the game and ofc as much content in it as possible.
... and they are getting exactly that. Does it matter for a backer if (s)he receives what (s)he payed for in 1 game or in 1 game + several DLCs? Nope.

You're against "backer only" content. The second pledge level of the Shadowrun Returns kickstarter offers a backer only special ingame ability. Is this already too far?
I could understand that point (and would sign it) if a rather big part (like a complete DLC) would be available for backers only. But as an extra incentive in form of a free DLC for backers while non-backers have to pay extra for? Nope.

avatar
Siannah: Stretch goal does not mean "part of the full game for everyone".
avatar
Immoli: But that's exactly what a stretch goal is. They reach what they had originally needed, and then put the extra money into making the game better for everyone. I didn't preorder Planetary Annihilation and get the Lava Planets and Water Planets DLC for free because I preordered, I helped to fund the creation of a video game which included lava and water planets and the core game had better include those.
Nope. Again, extra incentive for backers. Again, for backers it doesn't matter if you'll getting just PA or PA + DLC.
Why are there pre-orders with specific ingame items depending on where you buy it and only if you pre-order? To get people to pre-order in the first place. You don't want it? Don't do it. But also don't feel entitled to get these sometime further down the road as a integral part of the core game.

For the same reason you see that on kickstarters, ranging from rather dubious forum badges to ingame abilities or actual content - to get them to pledge in the first place.
Post edited April 13, 2013 by Siannah
avatar
orcishgamer: Don't worry, I already beat ya to it;)
avatar
Neobr10: No, i did, look at the downrepped post in the first page.
True, you did get first place on this one;)
avatar
Gonchi: It's my understanding that HBS are willing to give refunds to people that contact them over e-mail (check the update). I'm still on the fence about what I want to do, I have the backer account e-mail sitting in my inbox unanswered for now. If I'd backed at a lower tier I think I'd just shrug it off, but I'm feeling pretty fucking miffed right now. Even beyond the lack of a proper DRM-Free release, which I still think is a pretty big deal in and of itself, the dog tags will be empty, the box won't include Berlin... I don't know, lately it seems like every update we receive about SRR has at least one really crappy development.
At first I thought that simply forbidding them to reserve any Steam keys for me would be the proper course of action, but then I realized that excluding those that pledged for this game it is completely Steam-exclusive to others so by wearing the T-shirt, using the USB-stick, or playing the game in presence of anyone or just having the box in my shelf would make me propagate a cause that I do not wish to support. So in the end I saw no other option than to ask for a refund because I can't exactly give the game away either as who knows how many innocent gamers the new owner would introduce to Steam with it?

As for the Berlin DLC, I don't remember it being originally advertised as an add-on that the pledgers would get for free like some kickstarters have done and usually those are reserved only for the higher pledges. I hope that any projects with those will soon be (re)confirming that they were and will be selling them DRM-free to anyone after launch or there could be more refund request coming from me. Stretch-goals are for the base game to get bigger and better, extra ingame content should be at best cosmetic (titles, banners etc.), at worst perks that any non-pledger can substitute with ingame earned currency (Life Time Insurance & free rent) and never be DRM-infected DLCs that are excluded from the DRM-free customers if the base game got any DRM-free release.
avatar
Navagon: They sorta forgot to mention that they had a publisher pulling their strings and calling all the shots. That may have made all this derping about DRM being good and vital and a necessary thing all the more understandable. It would also have significantly reduced support for the project. What's the point of Kickstarter if it doesn't help devs break away from the usual publisher bullshit?
avatar
orcishgamer: People keep getting confused about this.

THEY HAVE A LICENSING AGREEMENT FOR THE IP. Their statements lead me to believe this is self published, they simply had to license the IP from MS, who owns, at the very least, video game rights to Shadowrun (they may own everything, FASA may have been dissolved).

It's a licensing agreement, all indie KS who use an existing IP and don't wholly own it will have one of these.

EDIT: I should clarify, getting a publisher when you have an existing product can still be beneficial, and since you aren't begging for development money and them shouldering a lot of risk you stand to make a much, much better deal. Even if they chose to use an existing publisher, for example to distribute in some parts of the world, they may stand to benefit from KS anyway, because the publisher is largely cut out of the development loop.
Topps has the rest of the rights.

Licensing disclosure is located on their website: http://www.shadowrun.com/forums/categories/game-2
Well, it does appear that there's more to this then originally thought. There's no mention of Shadowrun Returns on Steam Greenlight (I just checked), and if Postal 2, which HAD a boxed copy released to retail, had to go through it, so would Harebrained, who have only released iOS/Android games. So someone would have had to pull some strings to get it released without being on Greenlight.

And, I have a question since I don't regularly look at GFWL...has games been added to it? I'm just curious for my own thoughts, but with AoE2 HD being released on Steam...maybe MS is putting itself in a publisher's seat for this. I don't know, the whole situation just strikes me as odd.
avatar
Gersen: All the Steam features would be perfectly possible with 100% DRM-free games, even Steam could offer DRM-free games while keeping achievements, auto-patching, cloud saves, etc... if they wanted to.
The thing is, Steam features already are DRM-free. There's a list of DRM-free Steam games here on GOG, and these games do use Steam features. It's entirely possible for a game to be able to run without Steam, collect achievements, then sync them with Steam when Steam is running.


Regarding the argument about the Berlin DLC, I'd like to add some more detail to my previous comment:

The base game will cost $20, according to the Shadowrun Returns site. This is less than I expect other games which cost $15 on Kickstarter at the time, such as Broken Age (Double Fine Adventure) or Wasteland 2. I don't know how much the Berlin DLC will cost, but if it's $10 then you get the base game plus DLC for $30 (it may be another $20, but this doesn't really change what I'm saying much). Is it really a problem that the two cities are selling at $20+$10 instead of $30? In terms of selling the game, this actually makes more sense, as the two cities apparently have separate stories, and the barrier of entry is lowered by selling them separately.
avatar
TwilightBard: Well, it does appear that there's more to this then originally thought. There's no mention of Shadowrun Returns on Steam Greenlight (I just checked), and if Postal 2, which HAD a boxed copy released to retail, had to go through it, so would Harebrained, who have only released iOS/Android games. So someone would have had to pull some strings to get it released without being on Greenlight.
Not necessarily. Neither Torment: Tides of Numenera nor Wasteland 2 can be found on Greenlight either, yet on the Torment kickstarter a Steam release is confirmed and Wasteland 2 has beta access over Steam in their pledges.

The second, and imho most likely, possibility might be that you can circumvent Greenlight entirely by convincing Valve / Steam with your product in the first place.
avatar
Siannah: Not necessarily. Neither Torment: Tides of Numenera nor Wasteland 2 can be found on Greenlight either, yet on the Torment kickstarter a Steam release is confirmed and Wasteland 2 has beta access over Steam in their pledges.

The second, and imho most likely, possibility might be that you can circumvent Greenlight entirely by convincing Valve / Steam with your product in the first place.
I imagine games that plan Steamworks/ Steam Workshop probably get a free pass to some extent.
Post edited April 13, 2013 by Pheace
avatar
Siannah: The second, and imho most likely, possibility might be that you can circumvent Greenlight entirely by convincing Valve / Steam with your product in the first place.
Thousands if games got released on Steam long before Greenlight even existed, including plenty of Indy games. Also here we are not talking about Mr. Nobody who want to release it 10'000$ budget Indy game on Steam but about well known names of the industry who want to release widely publicized projects. Honestly the real surprised would have been if those games had to go through Greenlight, not the opposite.
avatar
Gonchi: It's my understanding that HBS are willing to give refunds to people that contact them over e-mail (check the update). I'm still on the fence about what I want to do, I have the backer account e-mail sitting in my inbox unanswered for now. If I'd backed at a lower tier I think I'd just shrug it off, but I'm feeling pretty fucking miffed right now. Even beyond the lack of a proper DRM-Free release, which I still think is a pretty big deal in and of itself, the dog tags will be empty, the box won't include Berlin... I don't know, lately it seems like every update we receive about SRR has at least one really crappy development.
Honestly, just tell them to reduce your pledge to 15$.

You would get the game DRM free (and no one besides the backers will ever get the game DRM free) and the first stretch goal DLC. Fucked or not, that still is a good price for what probably is a great game.

As a low level backer, I was still greatly disappointed hearing the news. I only back games where I can be sure that I support a new developer to give a new game to the world - for everyone to play without DRM hassle. Had I known that I would essentially fund a STEAM EXCLUSIVE GAME (!), sorry, but I would have never backed.

Harebrained Schemes have made a very, very shady deal here, one that contradicts the entire social component of Kickstarter. HBS should have put this "technicality" out in the open before day 1 of the crowd funding campaign.
I had luck that I didn't backed this game. It's not only because of the DRM. The game also has no loot system which is an essential thing for a RPG. So it dissapoints me twice.
avatar
Gersen: Thousands if games got released on Steam long before Greenlight even existed,
Yeah, but Greenlight seemed to have made it more difficult for some people that would have been able to release with little fuss without it, while making it easer for people who wouldn't otherwise bother.
avatar
Siannah: Nope. Again, extra incentive for backers. Again, for backers it doesn't matter if you'll getting just PA or PA + DLC.
For you it doesn't matter - for another group of backers (e.g. me, Immoli) it does.

I guess it's just different points of view on KS projects (again) - community funding vs glorified preorder.

Also, in relation to this backer only stuff vs backing something for others - let me just quote Update #7 from Shadowrun KS run (source).

Last week we announced that if our funding hit $1.5m, we’ll create a special story, just for backers, that connects the plots in the SNES and Sega Shadowrun games. It’s our way of saying thank you for all your support. Your reaction was immediate, passionate, and inspiring.

It seems like everyone is really excited about the mission (we are too!), but an overwhelming number of you don’t want that the mission to be exclusive for backers. You want everyone who loves Shadowrun to be able to experience it.

That’s awesome.

Your generosity of spirit and your support for people who aren’t (yet, we hope) involved in this Kickstarter really says something important about the Shadowrun Community and we’re proud to be a part of it. But we still want to say “thank you” to everyone supporting the project and putting their faith in us.
As an outcome, the proposed backer perk (story) went from exclusive to timed exclusive (might have been further changes later, I was out of the loop for some time after KS conclusion).
I AM SO ANGRY ABOUT THIS LEGITIMATE COMPLAINT!!!

I AM SO ANGRY YOU'RE ANGRY!!!

RAWRRARARARA!!!!!!