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Gonchi: DRM-Free was never demanded, it was offered up from the get go. HBS might not have lied to us, but they definitely deceived us.

Thankfully, pirat-erm, I mean, "modders" will fix it.
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orcishgamer: You may be correct about the initial offering about DRM-free, but there was no lying. They offered DRM free to backers, backers are getting DRM free PLUS a Steam key if we want it. So really we get two bloody copies. They also promised a DRM free editor, which we also get. They never promised all DLC would be DRM free nor does the main KS page even mention DLC once as far as I can see.
Hence why I say "they might not have lied to us, but..."

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orcishgamer: Given how most of the people bitching about this feel about paid DLC anyway, I'm guessing it's not a huge fucking loss to them.
Admittedly, I'm mostly set against DLC, but in this case I was looking forward to the additional campaigns, and the community content that would be produced with those assets. That's why it stings even more.
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hedwards: No, I didn't. It doesn't matter how you couch it in pseudo-logic, the bottom line is that I'm not getting the complete game, I'm getting a partial game in DRM free format and a fully functioning one with DRM.

They knew the terms of the license when they did the KS and they should have disclosed it then. I backed in part to send a message that we want these sorts of games without DRM.

I really and truly don't care what sort of apologetic you can whip up, the bottom line is that this isn't what I backed. And it's an insult to those of us that thought we were getting a full DRM free game rather than an extended demo.
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orcishgamer: Under what insane logic is the game crippled? Because they refuse to sell you some future DLC, of unknown quality and volume, in the format you prefer? The game works and loads levels from an editor, do you seriously doubt more content than you'd ever care to play will be available for it?

"Extended demo"? And you're calling my argument "pseudo logic"? You gotta be fucking kidding me, you're not even rational if you really think what they're giving you amounts to a demo. Good fucking grief!
Good luck trying to get DLC for games without using a DRM service. Want Playstation DLC? Go to Playstation Store. Want Nintendo DLC? Go to Nintendo Eshop. Want PC/Mac/Linux DLC? Go to whichever online vendor you bought it from. Even GOG's DLC for Omerta is designed to work with the GOG version!
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Gonchi: Admittedly, I'm mostly set against DLC, but in this case I was looking forward to the additional campaigns, and the community content that would be produced with those assets. That's why it stings even more.
Since the DRM free one will load said community content and will include a DRM free editor, I'm pretty sure you're going to get most of it. I can't say what kind of DLC they'll release themselves or even if it'll be worth the price in comparison to the content. This whole thing seems like a lot of fucking WHARGARBLE to me, people were pissed, clarification was made, people still wanted to be pissed so kept hand wringing until they felt justified in staying pissed off.
Post edited April 12, 2013 by orcishgamer
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hedwards: No, I didn't. It doesn't matter how you couch it in pseudo-logic, the bottom line is that I'm not getting the complete game, I'm getting a partial game in DRM free format and a fully functioning one with DRM.

They knew the terms of the license when they did the KS and they should have disclosed it then. I backed in part to send a message that we want these sorts of games without DRM.

I really and truly don't care what sort of apologetic you can whip up, the bottom line is that this isn't what I backed. And it's an insult to those of us that thought we were getting a full DRM free game rather than an extended demo.
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orcishgamer: Under what insane logic is the game crippled? Because they refuse to sell you some future DLC, of unknown quality and volume, in the format you prefer? The game works and loads levels from an editor, do you seriously doubt more content than you'd ever care to play will be available for it?

"Extended demo"? And you're calling my argument "pseudo logic"? You gotta be fucking kidding me, you're not even rational if you really think what they're giving you amounts to a demo. Good fucking grief!
Yes, it's a bit of hyperbole, but the bottom line is that the DRM free version is unlikely to see the level of modding that the Steam version will as it's only available to the KS backers.

A game of this sort can have a ton of content that comes from 3rd party developers, and it's really disgusting that the KS backers are going to be stuck loading up a Steam copy to get to play them, especially seeing as it's supposed to be a DRM free game that we were given.

All, I want is what they promised, nothing more. There was no mention made that they would be crippling the KS backer version to appease MS. They could have disclosed it and probably made enough to fund their goal, they just wouldn't have had my money.
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jackalKnight: Something that was promised by exactly NO ONE. Not GOG, not Microsoft or any of its employees, nor anyone from CD at their various conferences. It had precisely as much life in it as "LucasArts on GOG" rumors that only died when LucasArts did.
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hedwards: GOG has hinted that MS might be close to agreeing to a license, but they've never hinted that the agreement was signed, so they may or may not be close to a deal.

Plus, this is a new game, so MS may or may not be less restrictive with older ones.
GOG never hinted anything about MS. They said "major publishers". They at no point said MS. This has as little leg to stand on as the endless LucasArts rumors did.
Considering the miracle that Sys Shock 2 licensing was, you guys are WAAAAYYY too optimistic. MS won't even enable Playstation/XBox crossplay because they don't want people from a free service playing against a pay one (XBox Live!).
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Gonchi: Admittedly, I'm mostly set against DLC, but in this case I was looking forward to the additional campaigns, and the community content that would be produced with those assets. That's why it stings even more.
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orcishgamer: Since the DRM free one will load said community content and will include a DRM free editor, I'm pretty sure you're going to get most of it. I can't say what kind of DLC they'll release themselves or even if it'll be worth the price in comparison to the content. This whole thing seems like a lot of fucking WHARGARBLE to me, people were pissed, clarification was made, people still wanted to be pissed to kept hand wringing until they felt justified in staying pissed off.
Right, having a KS campaign defrauding people is clearly not a good reason for us to be pissed about being cheated.
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hedwards: GOG has hinted that MS might be close to agreeing to a license, but they've never hinted that the agreement was signed, so they may or may not be close to a deal.

Plus, this is a new game, so MS may or may not be less restrictive with older ones.
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jackalKnight: GOG never hinted anything about MS. They said "major publishers". They at no point said MS. This has as little leg to stand on as the endless LucasArts rumors did.
Considering the miracle that Sys Shock 2 licensing was, you guys are WAAAAYYY too optimistic. MS won't even enable Playstation/XBox crossplay because they don't want people from a free service playing against a pay one (XBox Live!).
When they signed EA, IIRC, MS was one of the publishers that they listed as being possibly close.
Post edited April 12, 2013 by hedwards
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orcishgamer: Since the DRM free one will load said community content and will include a DRM free editor, I'm pretty sure you're going to get most of it. I can't say what kind of DLC they'll release themselves or even if it'll be worth the price in comparison to the content. This whole thing seems like a lot of fucking WHARGARBLE to me, people were pissed, clarification was made, people still wanted to be pissed to kept hand wringing until they felt justified in staying pissed off.
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hedwards: Right, having a KS campaign defrauding people is clearly not a good reason for us to be pissed about being cheated.
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jackalKnight: GOG never hinted anything about MS. They said "major publishers". They at no point said MS. This has as little leg to stand on as the endless LucasArts rumors did.
Considering the miracle that Sys Shock 2 licensing was, you guys are WAAAAYYY too optimistic. MS won't even enable Playstation/XBox crossplay because they don't want people from a free service playing against a pay one (XBox Live!).
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hedwards: When they signed EA, IIRC, MS was one of the publishers that they listed as being possibly close.
At no point did they flat out say MS was imminent. I supplied a longstanding MS policy in regards to XBox. You supplied something you desperately want to happen but had no concrete evidence of.
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orcishgamer: Under what insane logic is the game crippled? Because they refuse to sell you some future DLC, of unknown quality and volume, in the format you prefer? The game works and loads levels from an editor, do you seriously doubt more content than you'd ever care to play will be available for it?

"Extended demo"? And you're calling my argument "pseudo logic"? You gotta be fucking kidding me, you're not even rational if you really think what they're giving you amounts to a demo. Good fucking grief!
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hedwards: Yes, it's a bit of hyperbole, but the bottom line is that the DRM free version is unlikely to see the level of modding that the Steam version will as it's only available to the KS backers.

A game of this sort can have a ton of content that comes from 3rd party developers, and it's really disgusting that the KS backers are going to be stuck loading up a Steam copy to get to play them, especially seeing as it's supposed to be a DRM free game that we were given.

All, I want is what they promised, nothing more. There was no mention made that they would be crippling the KS backer version to appease MS. They could have disclosed it and probably made enough to fund their goal, they just wouldn't have had my money.
They already stated that sideloading content will work just fine. So anything made for the Steam version will sideload, even using a mod manager to do it. All that community content that was promised will be yours if you want it.

So, all you don't get is some nebulous, unpromised (and untalked about during the KS) DLC. Given that, are you still that angry?
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Gonchi: Admittedly, I'm mostly set against DLC, but in this case I was looking forward to the additional campaigns, and the community content that would be produced with those assets. That's why it stings even more.
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orcishgamer: Since the DRM free one will load said community content and will include a DRM free editor, I'm pretty sure you're going to get most of it. I can't say what kind of DLC they'll release themselves or even if it'll be worth the price in comparison to the content. This whole thing seems like a lot of fucking WHARGARBLE to me, people were pissed, clarification was made, people still wanted to be pissed to kept hand wringing until they felt justified in staying pissed off.
Erm, no. Any community created content done post Berlin DLC will be unusable by the DRM-Free version. They say so outright in the latest update. The editor can't alter or create custom graphics, modders are limited to the assets released through DLC. I think it's a pretty legitimate reason to be pissed.
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hedwards: Right, having a KS campaign defrauding people is clearly not a good reason for us to be pissed about being
Yeah, said "cheating" has been blown way the fuck out of proportion, so yeah, it's WHARGARBLE.
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PoSSeSSeDCoW: Serious. Digital distribution history has shown us that more people are for games that use Steam features than against games that use Steam.
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nijuu: Thats because people have been conditioned to accept Steam since it was pretty much the first kid on the block & most dd stores are pretty much Steam key resellers (GOG and DotEMU aside) - doesn't prove more people use Steam 'features' though.
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Stevedog13: Did anyone notice the note from InXile on their Kickstarter page?

For both Torment and Wasteland 2, we're not using Steamworks and you won't be forced to use any single retailer option to access any part of the game or be able to use modding. We'll put the game on retailers that use DRM, like Steam or Origin, sure, because our backers can decide for themselves if they prefer that option, and we're agnostic to where you get the game.
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nijuu: Battle Kronos devs have come out and said something along similar lines. I think people backing Kickstarters will have to be a bit more diligent about asking for exactly what they would like, and what they will be getting. Not enough people asking for clarity.....
From GOG's twitter:

"Help our friends from inXile fund Torment: Tides of Numenera. Support the project: http://j.mp/TormentGOG it will be on GOG!"

https://twitter.com/GOGcom/status/319555215399456769

It really is a kickstarter by kickstarter basis. We know Torment IP is solely owned by Inxile (Numenera is by the RPG guy) but Wasteland 2 is licensed from EA (we know it will be on Origin and Steam).

Maybe in the future Jordan Weisman will come up with an original IP like "Shadowgun" and we can get it on GOG.
Post edited April 12, 2013 by tarohilt
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orcishgamer: Since the DRM free one will load said community content and will include a DRM free editor, I'm pretty sure you're going to get most of it. I can't say what kind of DLC they'll release themselves or even if it'll be worth the price in comparison to the content. This whole thing seems like a lot of fucking WHARGARBLE to me, people were pissed, clarification was made, people still wanted to be pissed to kept hand wringing until they felt justified in staying pissed off.
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Gonchi: Erm, no. Any community created content done post Berlin DLC will be unusable by the DRM-Free version. They say so outright in the latest update. The editor can't alter or create custom graphics, modders are limited to the assets released through DLC. I think it's a pretty legitimate reason to be pissed.
No, what they said in the latest update was:

"Backers who want a DRM-free experience with Shadowrun Returns (on Windows, OSX, and Linux) are getting the game, editor and all, and will be able to transfer community-created story files and update executables manually. (It works just like a non-Steam version of Skyrim: you can install mods manually or via a 3rd-party tool such as Nexus.) The DRM-free version will not require any internet connection or any form of online authorization to play.* In addition, Backers who like the convenience and reliability of Steam and who want automatic updates, easy-to-browse content, and a DLC store are getting them."

Is there any other source for the information you're indicating? According to their latest update only their post Berlin DLC will not sideload, ALL user generated content will.
Post edited April 12, 2013 by orcishgamer
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Gonchi: Erm, no. Any community created content done post Berlin DLC will be unusable by the DRM-Free version. They say so outright in the latest update. The editor can't alter or create custom graphics, modders are limited to the assets released through DLC. I think it's a pretty legitimate reason to be pissed.
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orcishgamer: No, what they said in the latest update was:

"Backers who want a DRM-free experience with Shadowrun Returns (on Windows, OSX, and Linux) are getting the game, editor and all, and will be able to transfer community-created story files and update executables manually. (It works just like a non-Steam version of Skyrim: you can install mods manually or via a 3rd-party tool such as Nexus.) The DRM-free version will not require any internet connection or any form of online authorization to play.* In addition, Backers who like the convenience and reliability of Steam and who want automatic updates, easy-to-browse content, and a DLC store are getting them."

Is there any other source for the information you're indicating? According to their latest update only their post Berlin DLC will not sideload, ALL user generated content will.
Here's the image that sums up the differences. Anything released post Berlin is unplayable by the DRM-Free version.
Attachments:
We said that post-Berlin Campaign DLC would only be available on Steam but we never said why. We regret the omission. The reason is that our license to develop Shadowrun Returns actually requires that the game and its DLC be distributed under DRM. This didn’t come up earlier...
The fact that the game and its DLC is required to be distributed under DRM "didn't come up" when they promised a DRM-free version of the game? If you don't view DLC as part of the game then you can argue that they're keeping their word, but I do not admire the way they handled this.
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I still can't get over how hypocritical this thread is.
People on GOG continually go on about how much they hate paid DLC and refuse to buy it. The moment a game comes out with DLC exclusive to another platform, they whine about not getting access to said DLC and complain about how GOG handles patching compared to Steam (hell, I can even remember people bitching about how GOG's version doesn't grant access to Steamworks!)