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General discussionWhat does DRM-FREE mean?(73 posts)(73 posts)
(73 posts)
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This is my favourite topic
Posted August 13, 2016
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mobutu: Maybe I fool myself, maybe I don't. But the undeniable fact is that gog is growing and gog is drm-free. And math taught me that the undeniable conclusion on this is that drm-free is growing. Yes, within a minority so far. We'll see how big (or small) this minority is in the future.
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nightcraw1er.488: If Gog is indeed growing, then it is because its becoming more steam like to appeal to that market. If you think that is a rise in support for DRM free then that's fine. I just see it as a brief spikes as the gimmicks open. Connect, InDev, galaxy etc. Spikes, then back to normal. That's not to say there isn't some genuine growth, but all markets grow all the time, last sales figures I saw was one where they released Gog, humble, steam figures and Gog is a tiny fraction of humble with their DRM free-like setup.
You want cynical? OK.

DRM only and constantly manages to piss people off. Not all at once of course. You have the big amount of users that do no care and a random minor number from that pool of ppl that gets agonized by DRM each day. Sometimes small time sometimes big time. Sure some build massive services around it to sweeten up the bitter pill but, for the user, its a constant MG strayfire of annoyance which is bound to hit said users. Sometime it hits hard making them instant do something, sometimes not so hard, letting them make a rant and proceed as before before getting hit again and again till they snap.

The only ppl happy with DRM are not the users, not those that bring the money from buying the product.

By the time I wrote that 15 ppl got burned by DRM.

11 continue as usual waving it off. 2 from now on only play pirated boardgames; 1 cancelled his uplay account and buys only on gog, 1 swore off technology and became Amish.

The previous 2 paragraphs might be made up ;)
Posted August 13, 2016
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CosmicVoyagerX: DRM is copyright protection.
True. But copyright protection is not DRM. A raven is a bird, but a bird is not necessarily a raven. Ravens are a subset of birds, and DRM is a subset of copyright protection.
So their claim that the games are DRM-free is correct. Doesn't mean they are free of copyright protection.
Posted August 13, 2016
I find it interesting that the community surrounding a DRM free platform is so mislead about what DRM is. Since our medium is so polluted with various forms of "management" that we bicker over terminology and can no longer decide on common ground for the definition, let's simply look elsewhere to define our common ground: Software.

Here's some software: https://mirrors.kernel.org/gnu/
Notice the distinct lack of CD keys, "copy protection", online checks, or otherwise any means of self limiting code execution.

Here's another example of software: http://xpadder.com/?lang=english&country=US
This one is hidden behind a paywall. It's not free. Notice the distinct lack of CD keys, "copy protection", online checks, or otherwise any means of self limiting code execution.

It really is as simple as that.

A lot of the discussion in these GoG threads boil down to being pedantic, which I don't find helpful or otherwise productive. I'd like to specifically address the notion that "copy protection/serials aren't DRM". I don't find this distinction meaningful. These are two means of self limiting code execution. While you might consider them different in that "copy protection/serials" are older methods to curb piracy, and "DRM" is a newer method to curb piracy, they're both a means to the same end. Modern "DRM" is simply the logical progression of "copy protection"- it's the same idea, just evolved to deal with an evolving technological landscape (and evolved in ever more complex forms to deal with users circumventing it). Pointing out such minute pedantic distinctions in these discussions is a red herring: it's sort of like saying that a sword isn't a weapon because it can't shoot bullets, and all our weapons today shoot bullets. (I know, the analogy isn't perfect, try to meet me halfway here :)

I'm quoting timppu here, because, despite my disagreement re: product key, I find his response to be the most lucid and constructive. It really highlights that in today's landscape, some "self limiting code execution" in certain aspects of the game is not only acceptable, but downright beneficial to the community surrounding the game. His response dispels the "all or nothing" false dichotomy that often pervades these discussions. Well done.

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CosmicVoyagerX: DRM is copyright protection. One of the oldest DRM protection methods is a product key.
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timppu: DRM is Digital Rights Management, ways trying to manage (restrict) your usage of a product after the purchase.

A product key in itself is not DRM unless it is somehow e.g. authenticated online before you can use the product. If it is not, then it is in no way restricting how, where or when you can use the product.

Some GOG games can be considered to have multiplayer DRM, requiring even an online account to play multiplayer online. So yes you should consider the DRM-freeness of GOG games to pertain to the single-player part of a game (and yes maybe GOG should also clarify that somewhere, if not for other reason but to stop these same discussions popping up every few weeks). With multiplayer part it varies; some games may have an option for DRM-free multiplayer as well, for some the multiplayer part has been made inert in the GOG version (because the multiplayer would work only e.g. in Steam) etc.

I guess there is a general consensus that a game can be considered DRM-free as long as its single-player part doesn't require online authentication or other restrictions to playing it. For instance, these Steam games are considered DRM-free even though their multiplayer part requires a Steam account, it is only the single-player part that is DRM-free. Also I am pretty sure e.g. Humble Bundle/Store is marketing DRM-free games where it pertains only to the single-player part.

I personally even prefer DRM in online multiplayer because it is the only feasible way to ban cheaters from destroying other people's fun. So DRM in online multiplayer even benefits me as a gamer. I am not against the game having also other (DRM-free?) options for multiplayer as well, like local co-op, LAN play, direct IP and whatever there are...

Single-player, I want DRM-free, there I don't have to care about other people possibly ruining my fun with cheating. There I care only that I can run the game even if the store/service from where I bought the game is closed down or inaccessible. There I don't see how DRM would benefit me (and no, requiring an online account for optional features like cloud saving, achievements tracking, leaderboards etc. is not DRM, as "optional DRM" is an oxymoron).
Post edited August 13, 2016 by Link_Satonaka
Posted August 13, 2016
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Link_Satonaka: I find it interesting that the community surrounding a DRM free platform is so mislead about what DRM is. Since our medium is so polluted with various forms of "management" that we bicker over terminology and can no longer decide on common ground for the definition, let's simply look elsewhere to define our common ground: Software.

Here's some software: https://mirrors.kernel.org/gnu/
Notice the distinct lack of CD keys, "copy protection", online checks, or otherwise any means of self limiting code execution.
Last time I checked, using gpl code means playing by gnu's rules, just like any other license.

(and I am not going down the gpl/bsd flashdance)
Posted August 13, 2016
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CosmicVoyagerX: DRM is copyright protection.
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Fesin: True. But copyright protection is not DRM. A raven is a bird, but a bird is not necessarily a raven. Ravens are a subset of birds, and DRM is a subset of copyright protection.
So their claim that the games are DRM-free is correct. Doesn't mean they are free of copyright protection.
True, a fork is a utensil but not all utensils are forks, or knives or spoons for that matter, but DRM and copyright protection is still a burden and very annoying.
As for the fact that the majority will keep on buying drm loaded and copyprotected games, i am not one of those sheeps.

If i like a casual game on steam and i dont know if the game is drm free (no steam need to run after its installed) thats why i wait if its 6.99 ,9.99 or higher till its on sale, when its 1 or 3 euros i buy it, but if i notice it needs the client to run it, i will stop buying from that dev/publisher and i will also tell him that in the topics at steam.
If the games do run once installed (zip/rar it) on any of my windows or pc, then i buy the new game at 7 euros, i will go on till one of the games starts to nag about steam client then i stop...
lucky for me there are some devs who have all their casual games drm free once the game is installed (using steam)i can run it anywhere ofcourse provided the windows or os can run the game.
Posted August 13, 2016
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Link_Satonaka: it's sort of like saying that a sword isn't a weapon because it can't shoot bullets, and all our weapons today shoot bullet
No, it's kind of like pointing out that not every weapon is a gun. Just like not every copyright protection is DRM. "Gun" is a subset of "weapon", "sword" is a subset of weapon. "Sword" is not a subset of "gun".
"DRM" is a subset of "copyright protection". "CD key" is a subset of "copyright protection". But "CD key" is not a subset of "DRM". It's really not that hard to understand.

CD keys have been around a lot longer than then the term "DRM", so just doesn't make any sense to use "DRM" to describe CD keys.
Post edited August 13, 2016 by Fesin
Posted August 14, 2016
Anyone know where the OP went? :P

I hate it when people do this crap. Many of you may remember divisionbyzero who was notorious for it. Of course, his posts were always totally insane piles of paranoid bullshit. At least this OP is asking a fair question.
Posted August 14, 2016
Essentially, the GOG definition of DRM-free amounts to this: once your installers (and if appropriate, extras) are downloaded, you can disconnect your internet connection and your game is guaranteed to install and play to the extent that would ordinarily be possible on an offline PC without any artificial restrictions. These games are guaranteed to run independently of any internet-based service.

Some games drive this interpretation to the limits. Age of Wonders 3, for instance, will run offline just fine with a "Guest" account, but the very wording and the way that it is hidden show that Triumph don't want you playing in that manner.

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nightcraw1er.488: Don't fool yourself. There are vastly (millions) more people who are quite happy with DRM and Client-wares, there are probably more than that who just don't care.
Indeed, but a lot of that is due to a combination of apathy and a fundamental misunderstanding of how the technical and legal aspects of DRM work.

Many people are just fine with DRM until they discover that it can indeed bite them in the arse. I've lost count of the number of people I know who, five years ago, were unrepentant Steam apologists (basically an extension of their PC master race mentality) and now refuse to game on PC because the only way to play most AAA games is on Steam. Most of them got bitten by internet connection fallouts, huge mandatory patches combined on a very slow rural connection, account locks and the inability to resell their games. Time and again people seem to insist on trying to resell their boxed PC Steam games with the rationale that they've "only used it once" or end up being bitten by buying used boxed games (and have tried to sue the publisher for it).

Others yet believe that online DRM operators are legally required to perpetually keep the DRM servers online forever more or even have no understanding of how a client-server relationship works, believing that everything is happening on their PCs through the Steam client.

It's one thing to accept the limitations that DRM imposes on the game buying experience, but it's another to not even have the requisite knowledge to make an informed decision in the first place.
Posted August 14, 2016
It means you have to keep it real with MC Double Def DP the Disk Protector
Posted August 14, 2016
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jamyskis: It's one thing to accept the limitations that DRM imposes on the game buying experience, but it's another to not even have the requisite knowledge to make an informed decision in the first place.
Implying the possible converts are uninformed isn't going to win them over.

And again, why should they give up a much larger collection of games (wishlist) and features (wishlist), trading one set of bugs for another (galaxy is still beta), all in the name of philosophy?

Note that I am against drm as are many of them; they simply chose the path of least resistance which was to just go with it.
Post edited August 14, 2016 by paigosa
Posted August 14, 2016
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Link_Satonaka: I find it interesting that the community surrounding a DRM free platform is so mislead about what DRM is...

A lot of the discussion in these GoG threads boil down to being pedantic, which I don't find helpful or otherwise productive. I'd like to specifically address the notion that "copy protection/serials aren't DRM"...
Sometimes when all the theoretical and legal jargon makes something more complex than it need be, I like to take a practical perspective.

My personal "practical" definition of DRM-free software means I can make a backup of the software and install it again on a completely different PC without the requirement to have an internet connection or make a telephone call before the software will run. Serial keys would thus be OK in this definition. Copy protection would not.

I used to take the view that serial keys were also a form of DRM in that if I lost them, then I'd lose the ability to reinstall the software... but then I'd have to regard an offline DRM-free installer as DRM too because if I lost my backups of the installer then I also wouldn't be able to reinstall the software... assuming a worst case scenario that whichever company sold me the software, they were no longer in business and I could no longer download the software from them again. And it's not just going out of business that could prevent me re-downloading an installer. Maybe my original installer had content that was subsequently removed from the publishers download servers because licences to some of that content had expired, e.g. music.

So I always ultimately break this distinction down into good and bad DRM. Good DRM for me is serial keys and having an offline installer, and I have no problems with it. I only recently downloaded the offline installers for Diablo 2, StarCraft and WarCraft 3 from Battle.Net - and despite them still needing me to enter my product keys, I certainly don't feel I have the right to complain. I'm very grateful to them for making those installers available. Although I did have a bit of a heart-attack when I was trying to find the CD key for my box copy of the StarCraft expansion and despite looking everywhere including behind the CD case, I eventually realised that Blizzard already included the expansion in their download for the base game, and they did so because the expansion never had a product key.

EDIT: just correcting some ambiguous wording.
Post edited August 14, 2016 by agogfan
Posted August 14, 2016
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Trilarion: What is so obnoxious about pinwheels and manuals? I always thought this is part of the game.

However try to start Steam without an internet connection and you see that DRM just nicely throws a small popup in your face that tells you that now is not the time for gaming. I had it (unwantedly) and it wasn't a nice experience. Definitely increases the blood pressure (which if only happening occasionally might be a good thing even).
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paigosa: Out of curiosity, where were you that you had a pc without an internet connection for a period long enough for a typical gaming session?
At home, with construction work going on in my building, resulting in a dead phone line, with technical service from my local telephone provider coming wednesday after (it was, of course, friday).

You see, DRM of Steam is pile of shit. Nothing but non-intrusive. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it.

I actually hate it so much, I only own two games on Steam and 150 on GOG.

Ahm. I hope that satisfies your curiousity. I apologize for any emotional outbreak during posting.
Post edited August 14, 2016 by Trilarion
Posted August 14, 2016
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paigosa: Out of curiosity, where were you that you had a pc without an internet connection for a period long enough for a typical gaming session?
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Trilarion: At home, with construction work going on in my building, resulting in a dead phone line, with technical service from my local telephone provider coming wednesday after (it was, of course, friday).

You see, DRM of Steam is pile of shit. Nothing but non-intrusive. I hate it. I hate it. I hate it.

I actually hate it so much, I only own two games on Steam and 150 on GOG.

Ahm. I hope that satisfies your curiousity. I apologize for any emotional outbreak during posting.
My own internet connection is pathetic on the best of days, shorts out whenever it rains and due to monopolistic practices support has flat out told me off, so I can understand the frustration. I have long since given up on even attempting to play anything online and despise having to log in to a remote server to play an offline game without any online capability whatsoever just as much as everyone else. Ironically, my phone has better service than the blasted modem and the moment those little routers that piggy-back over the cell network have some sort of unlimited plan at a reasonable price, I look forward to telling my present provider to go to hell.

That being said, there are many games that use drm and steam that I would like to play and given the evergrowing wishlist, it appears I am not alone in this. The smaller publishers, needing whatever sales they can get, appear to be more open to our sort of lifestyle and they seem to be growing in dominance, which I agree to be a good thing as it finally brings a true threat to the old regime, who's terrible support and tendencies to purposely piss off their costumer base constantly makes us wonder what unholy pact they must have made to still be around, but so long as the vast majority are willing to let things continue as they are, I don't foresee gog overtaking steam anytime soon. However, I would be more than pleased if the coming years prove me wrong.
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This is my favourite topic
Community
General discussionWhat does DRM-FREE mean?(73 posts)(73 posts)
(73 posts)