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Perscienter: It's just not important enough to call it revolution. We are still talking about a niche market. I also don't call it a revolution, if I go to the fashion store.
EDIT: Deleting this post. Nobody wins arguing semantics with trolls.
Post edited February 03, 2013 by PenutBrittle
Ultimately, I see this as being nothing but great for low-laying drm like steam, and needing a trial run for DRM free sites.
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Trilarion: Either they must issue a warning before selling that this bed is not suitable above a certain weight of if they don't they must make sure it is working for the two year period mentioned under normal usage. Whether you make them more stable here or just replace broken ones I don't know. Probably the later is cheaper.
they do not do that here in australia and when you break it it is your fault. if the bed was faulty then they will replace it but if you broke it yourself because you used it too much then tough luck.
i don't believe you and will need some proof as what you said was true about replacement because it is completely different from Australian warranties which are quite good.

I don't see the big difference in time, convenience, maybe a bit in risk but then with digital services there is also risks: Steam could have a temporary connection problem (they do), your internet connection could be troubled or they could go out of business (probably less likely than a disc becoming broken but still there). So there are always risks, but for all practical purposes digital products behave just as long lived products like a diamond necklace. It would feel strange if the jewelers would demand forbidding reselling of jewelry because it lasts so long and they cannot sell it again themselves once it's sold. Maybe they should try.
okay...
time:
buying used physical good takes times. weeks sometimes. digital... speed of your internet determines how long it takes. for good broadband thats under 20 hours for massive games.
convenience:
you have to get up from your ass and go to post office and designated time, wait in a line. maybe it will be delivered to your place... then you have to be home at specific time.
risk:
oh yeah. buying used cd from guy from spain is only slightly more risky than steam? there risks are way different. you use internet disruption as an argument. okay. your risk is that game won't be avaiable to play for one hour in a day once every seven months. does it really compare to the risk of getting damaged nonworking cd, mail lost/stolen...

Nobody said that he wants to pay less.
yes they did. they want store credits to have more money to buy new games. THIS IS THE POINT OF RESALE!
expect to pay the same on average, a used game cannot be cheaper than a crazy promotion. I bought all my last games only in promotions but I really hate that I only rent them (lifelong but still). And then the games which are not available at all currently - what does a crazy promotion of other games help them?
whats the point then of resale if you not save anyone money.

I think we would not all lose but probably all effects would cancel out on price but we would gain a lot in ownership.
we would lose because you just said we would not end up saving money.,... therefore if you do not trade you lose money if there was crazy promotions.
and how do you figure we would gain a lot in ownership.... of what and how? no drmless games.. nobody will allow resale without ensuring you lose the access to the game. so less ownership less control over your purchase. only for being able to get some store credit and play resale game to ensure that you spend as much as you spend now on games.

I think the basic reason for the transition is simple: the industry killed second hand because it can. Not because it would be good for the customer.
i have 200 games. i would not have 2/3 of those games if not digital sales, gog, steam. yeah. it is good for consumer. it is good for consumer that i can spend 15 dollars on a game which will provide me with dozens hours of fun.
and you had second hand market before remember? before digital distribution. and games where more expensive back then. indies pretty much were not existing. and these days with cost of producing games skyrocketing, recquring more sales to be profitable... you want to undercut publishers and devs even more... look what happened to great company such as thq, what is happening to Atari. The smaller companies will go down. EA, Activision will survive, Valve too.... Indies? no.



also:
second hand market means death to this site. at least in the form which it is now. i do not want this to happen.

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anjohl: Ultimately, I see this as being nothing but great for low-laying drm like steam, and needing a trial run for DRM free sites.
how can it work with drmless games. please provide me with working model.
Post edited February 04, 2013 by lukaszthegreat
All I want is certainty that if steam ever goes down, we keep our games. I know it doesn't say so in the EULA but I want them to make a statement on it.
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lukaszthegreat: how can it work with drmless games. please provide me with working model.
I sell the CD key, you download the game, and play it. It works the same way as with DRM, just relying on the honesty of the seller to delete his copy. You know, that same honor system that allows all digital content to be sold.

Remember, the vast majority of digital content purchasers know they can get that content for free, and where. A lack of DRM hasn't hurt itunes or gog purchases, so re-sales will be the same.

On an asside, I would be ok with an OPTIONAL DRM to enable used sales. IE, upon purchase of a game on GOG, you select DRM/DRM free, and the former is the only way to sell your games.
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anjohl: I sell the CD key, you download the game, and play it. It works the same way as with DRM, just relying on the honesty of the seller to delete his copy. You know, that same honor system that allows all digital content to be sold.
Ahahaha, can't stop laughing. Thanks man, you made my day.

If you think any corporation is going to rely on "honesty" and "the honor system" I want to drink/eat/snort what you're having.
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lukaszthegreat: ... they do not do that here in australia and when you break it it is your fault. if the bed was faulty then they will replace it but if you broke it yourself because you used it too much then tough luck.
i don't believe you and will need some proof as what you said was true about replacement because it is completely different from Australian warranties which are quite good. ...
The warranty conditions here are also quite good. They always imply normal usage. If there is a disagreement than in the first six months after buying the retailer/producer has to prove that the damage cannot come from normal usage, afterwards the customer has to prove that it comes from normal usage.

I wanted to give you links to articles but all articles regarding german warranties are in german, all english articles I found only discuss english/canadian warranties and I would not recommend automatic translation with legal talk.

yes they did. they want store credits to have more money to buy new games. THIS IS THE POINT OF RESALE!
NO NEED TO WRITE IN CAPITAL LETTERS! Okay maybe they did, but I don't. For me it's not the point of resale. It's more freedom and minimizing the risk of buying a bad game and having more competition. I expect to pay the same on average. If you reduce resale to lower prices than of course you'll end up with your conclusions. How did the normal economy ever manage or the games industry before digital downloads. Hard to imagine.
...no drmless games...
It doesn't have to be like this. I think there were even retail discs without copy protection (Paradox / Prince of Persia ... okay not many). GOG games can be pirated already now with low effort, still they sell quite a lot and continue not having DRM. So why do people now buy GOG games when they can just download them? There must be some honest people out there.

...second hand market means death to this site. at least in the form which it is now. i do not want this to happen. ...
It all depends a bit on how much people are willing to sell their games. Maybe they want to keep them. In a way you could say that libraries mean death to book stores. Every book you can buy, you can also borrow from a library almost at no costs. Or there is a second hand sale of books, still people do not sell often books but rather keep them which is economically irrational behavior. I guess they are probably less attached to digital downloads, but still something similar could happen and the shops with good service as GOG do not have to go down.


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AndrewC: ... If you think any corporation is going to rely on "honesty" and "the honor system" I want to drink/eat/snort what you're having.
According to GOG DRM doesn't work and the only thing you can do is give the best service to the honest customer. So what do you think GOG is drinking? :)
Post edited February 04, 2013 by Trilarion
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jodaniel3: All I want is certainty that if steam ever goes down, we keep our games. I know it doesn't say so in the EULA but I want them to make a statement on it.
They made a statement long time ago where they assured that they intent to release an unsteam crack before any possible going down. Either you believe them or not.
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lukaszthegreat: Do you consider ramifications of that ruling especially on drm free websites like dotemu?
To turn that around ever so slightly:

Did Gabe consider the ramifications of Steam/Steamworks with regards to consumer protection laws?

(Genuine question/topic for musing.)
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Trilarion: According to GOG DRM doesn't work and the only thing you can do is give the best service to the honest customer. So what do you think GOG is drinking? :)
Best service. Gog does not make money by trusting honest people will not pirate. They tried to provide better service that it will be better to buy game here than go to pirate bay.
Not honesty, not counting on people being nice. Simply like you said. Better service.... Which disappears when you can sale your digital games.

How do you expect gog to make money if you lose nothing when you sale your game when it will cost gog to support that second copy.
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lukaszthegreat: Do you consider ramifications of that ruling especially on drm free websites like dotemu?
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granny: To turn that around ever so slightly:

Did Gabe consider the ramifications of Steam/Steamworks with regards to consumer protection laws?

(Genuine question/topic for musing.)
Yes. With lawyers. Your point?



Also. I down repped you and reported that as spam. Very sorry as it was not my intention. I sit on iPad and for reply button to show up I have to tap. And I press rep button by accident :(. Sorry.
Post edited February 04, 2013 by lukaszthegreat
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granny: To turn that around ever so slightly:

Did Gabe consider the ramifications of Steam/Steamworks with regards to consumer protection laws?

(Genuine question/topic for musing.)
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lukaszthegreat: Yes. With lawyers. Your point?
*shrugs* Just some idle musing.

Effectively removing the ability to resell something one has bought* seems to me like quite a... dump, I suppose, to take on things like the first sale doctrine, and other similar laws/practices around the world.

You asked if the ramifications on DRM free places (DotEmu, GOG etc) had been considered. All this wrangling about our rights with regards to the stuff we buy via digital distribution was surely inevitable. I suppose what I wondered was whether Gabe had actually thought ahead to such an eventuality? No attempt on my part at point scoring, or being deliberately facetious, or being deliberately thick.

On a more general point, I think the ramifications for everyone are going to be very, very interesting to see. We can speculate from now until Doomsday about what is going to happen, but I think what will happen (for better or worse) will be utterly fascinating.

And, on an unrelated note, I'm off to make sure my GOG backups are in good working order...

*General plea: no mucking about with semantics please (Semantics? I'm always up for semantics!). Yes, technically we've never 'bought' anything, but people still use terms like "I bought Cyrillic MegaBiff of Steam!". So... yeah.

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lukaszthegreat: Also. I down repped you and reported that as spam. Very sorry as it was not my intention. I sit on iPad and for reply button to show up I have to tap. And I press rep button by accident :(. Sorry.
Meh. It's all good :-)
Post edited February 04, 2013 by granny
and never mind again - I am just cranky today.
Post edited February 04, 2013 by amok
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amok: I know. If everyone just did like steam does, then second hand sales would be possible for digital gods, but since places like Gog and DotEmu insists on DRM free or nothing, then I just don't see it being possible ...
That's interesting. I imagine just Steam allowing resales within the Steam plattform. Then GOG and DotEmu would really be dead. This would be a big competitive advantage and I guess this even has a chance of being implemented.

So Steam allowing resales within Steam with a percentage cut. That seems to be the future. That or going over completely to renting and monthly fees.

"Digital gods" - cool typo :)
+1
Post edited February 04, 2013 by Trilarion
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Trilarion: "Digital gods" - cool typo :)
+1
Worship at the new alter of steam, and Gabe is its profet. Prey, and they responded "My name is Legion, for we are many".
I'm curious btw for those adamant about retaining the right to second hand sales.

When is the last time you sold a GOG game? (Not a gift key)