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forbidden5: The vzbv announced that Valve has committed itself to making Steam accessible to those who didn't consent to their EULA changes, supposedly effective tomorrow.
Valve wasn't so forthcoming with the request to enable used sales, obviously, so they've been sued about this again.
Link in German
yeah, good luck with that (NOT!). used digital sales will never happen, and anybody who can't see why needs to get their head checked. i'm afraid that Germans might be digging their own digital grave there. move onto digital publishers like Valve too much, and they'll end up withdrawing from the German market. yeah, i know what you're going to say, but there's only so much European heat an American company will take before they say to themselves: "Fuck it. Let German gamers go through the Swiss and Austrian channels."

but my guess is that the VZBV isn't really serious anyway. they're just throwing their weight around, kinda like the EU likes to sue Microsoft from time to time.
Post edited January 31, 2013 by Fred_DM
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WhiteElk: ...i don't get the drama around this....
There isn't really a drama because the matter is clear (more or less). In almost all cases it's a personalized usage license, that means it grants usage rights to a specific person, not just to anyone. Therefore you cannot practically sell it because the value for anyone else is zero. Nobody else can use this license. So you're not able to sell it, not even a GOG game.

You can dislike it. I don't like it too. But you cannot change it easily. That is the trick the software industry did when transforming physical media to digital products and it worked rather well.

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Fred_DM: ... used digital sales will never happen, and anybody who can't see why needs to get their head checked ...
I hope you don't wonder if people react a bit funny to such impolite and assuming statements. :)
Post edited January 31, 2013 by Trilarion
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orcishgamer: Avoiding that seems to have devalued games on PC, though. It's not like being 5-10 bucks 3 months after launch is any worse than people trading your games second hand. I think it's encouraged PC gamers to by and large rarely buy on release day.
I think it's more along the lines of used buyers being sale buyers now, and those sales still give publishers/developers money while used games do not.
I sure hope the resale of used licenses will fail. If you have unused one like in your steam inventory you should be able to sale it. But "used"? Never.
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Trilarion: ...
It is the drama behind alternative method which i don't get. i understand how things are established now.. as relates to the second hand selling of software licenses. But when people speak of alternates, other people get all worked up. i don't get where their coming from getting all drama'fried and all.

All it takes is for a software publisher to team with a digital distributor, in order to devise a new method which is friendly to the second hand market. It is my assumption that when this gets tried, it will be done such that the original IP holder gets a humble percentage of the resale transaction. i really don't see the current methods of digital distribution and IP rights controls as lasting indefinitely. Consumer frustration grows as companies try and tighten the noose. From this develops a market for something new. Some group will be the first to capitalize on this consumer frustration. Sales will migrate, the market gets proved, and all the old toads holding consumer nooses, will let them drop and follow the new model, or they will wither and die from lack of sales.
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lukaszthegreat: I sure hope the resale of used licenses will fail. If you have unused one like in your steam inventory you should be able to sale it. But "used"? Never.
also, bear in mind that if Valve had to comply, every other digital distributor would have to as well. GOG, for example. considering the German market would be the only one with such legislation, it would be likely for digital distributors to stop doing business in Germany.
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anjohl: And to the people in the thread that are saying they don't think people should have the right to sell their games, what the fuck is wrong with you? Do you own shares in Valve? There is NO defensible position from that angle.
Stockholm syndrome. That's all I'll say on this topic.
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WhiteElk: All it takes is for a software publisher to team with a digital distributor, in order to devise a new method which is friendly to the second hand market. It is my assumption that when this gets tried, it will be done such that the original IP holder gets a humble percentage of the resale transaction. i really don't see the current methods of digital distribution and IP rights controls as lasting indefinitely. Consumer frustration grows as companies try and tighten the noose. From this develops a market for something new. Some group will be the first to capitalize on this consumer frustration. Sales will migrate, the market gets proved, and all the old toads holding consumer nooses, will let them drop and follow the new model, or they will wither and die from lack of sales.
if you want a used sales market of digitally distributed goods, you will need some form of DRM to keep control over the flow of licenses. It could work for example on Steam, which you do not like, but not on gOg.
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jamyskis: Stockholm syndrome. That's all I'll say on this topic.
simplifying things, are we? i'm totally against re-selling used games because in 20 years of gaming i've never once sold a game or bought a used one, and never once felt the need to. i oppose it because it would encourage a use-and-throw-away mentality with videogames, or what i call "fast food gaming", which hurts the industry and can only have negative effects on the production of games and their quality.

now with the PC market being almost exclusively a digital one, things like availability and pricing have essentially become a non-issue. why would you want to sell your games after use when deep discounts devalue your games faster than you can complete them? why would you want to buy a used game (a ridiculous notion in the digital sphere!) when you can purchase a new one with a 75% discount?
Post edited January 31, 2013 by Fred_DM
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WhiteElk: ...Sales will migrate, the market gets proved, and all the old toads holding consumer nooses, will let them drop and follow the new model, or they will wither and die from lack of sales.
Sadly it doesn't happen like this. Germany based digital distributor gamesload.de offers a transferable license for years now (all games except EA) and nobody notices. Sure prices are not that low as with Steam, but the service is not getting more publicity nor increasing sales whatsorever. It's only one example but contrary to what you predict. Either people are too lazy or they put much less emphasis on the importance of used sales than you or me.

Btw. That also shows that used digital sales are possible and the world is not worse because of it.
Post edited January 31, 2013 by Trilarion
This might already be linked to in this thread:
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/europe_it_is_now_allowed_to_sell_used_software_cd_and_digital/page1

Personally I don't see the difference between a license via a DD outlet or a license via a retail store.
In both cases I own the license, only on a different media. Which means in both cases I should be able to sell that license.
I also don't see a difference between games and (e-)books, music and videos when it comes to selling used items.

As reselling means you're not allowed to own a copy, the only way to enforce that is DRM.

As for companies leaving countries which allow/enforce reselling, that has to be seen. If they can still make a profit, they'll stay. Less profit is still profit.
I'm not sure if the combination of big sales and reselling will work. I expect less sales or less discount on sales.
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WhiteElk: ...Sales will migrate, the market gets proved, and all the old toads holding consumer nooses, will let them drop and follow the new model, or they will wither and die from lack of sales.
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Trilarion: Sadly it doesn't happen like this. Germany based digital distributor gamesload.de offers a transferable license for years now (all games except EA) and nobody notices. Sure prices are not that low as with Steam, but the service is not getting more publicity nor increasing sales whatsorever. It's only one example but contrary to what you predict. Either people are too lazy or they put much less emphasis on the importance of used sales than you or me.

Btw. That also shows that used digital sales are possible and the world is not worse because of it.
I think you did not notice something in your own post. Whatever games load did is irrelevant as just like you said. Nobady notices. Their actions have no impact sans why the world is not worse off.


I am for whole account trades, game in your inv or simple key trade. Not games themselves which I played. How do you imagine gog system working, massive sales... If people can trade "used" games we won't see massive discounts nor any discounts for that matter.

If it happens I hope Germany will be isolated when company stop doing business with the country, otherwise everyone will suffer.
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HertogJan: This might already be linked to in this thread:
http://www.gog.com/forum/general/europe_it_is_now_allowed_to_sell_used_software_cd_and_digital/page1

Personally I don't see the difference between a license via a DD outlet or a license via a retail store.
In both cases I own the license, only on a different media. Which means in both cases I should be able to sell that license.
I also don't see a difference between games and (e-)books, music and videos when it comes to selling used items.

As reselling means you're not allowed to own a copy, the only way to enforce that is DRM.

As for companies leaving countries which allow/enforce reselling, that has to be seen. If they can still make a profit, they'll stay. Less profit is still profit.
I'm not sure if the combination of big sales and reselling will work. I expect less sales or less discount on sales.
There is no such thing as used digital goods. This is the difference between retail and digital.
Post edited January 31, 2013 by lukaszthegreat
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Fred_DM: also, bear in mind that if Valve had to comply, every other digital distributor would have to as well. GOG, for example. considering the German market would be the only one with such legislation, it would be likely for digital distributors to stop doing business in Germany.
It should be noted that the vzbv did sue Valve over this issue several years ago, but the suit was rejected in court. The reason they're having another go is the ECJ ruling concerning this issue, which would override the German court. Or any other European court for that matter, so any member state would be affected.

I'm happy they called out Valve for their apparently illegal practice regarding the EULA changes and got them to back down. The new lawsuit is interesting, but judging by the last one not something that will be resolved so timely.
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Trilarion: Sadly it doesn't happen like this. Germany based digital distributor gamesload.de offers a transferable license for years now (all games except EA) and nobody notices. Sure prices are not that low as with Steam, but the service is not getting more publicity nor increasing sales whatsorever. It's only one example but contrary to what you predict. Either people are too lazy or they put much less emphasis on the importance of used sales than you or me.

Btw. That also shows that used digital sales are possible and the world is not worse because of it.
I must confess that even when I was still actively gaming on PC I didn't give Gamesload much thought because I'd written it off as another overpriced, DRM-infested Steam/Origin clone. The fact that it belongs to T-Kom was enough to frighten me off. I never knew that Gamesload allowed you to sell most of your games, but then it's not a feature they've openly publicised.

That being said, a large number of games on GL are Steam keys and Uplay keys anyway. I'm not sure how GL intends to allow customers to sell them.
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jamyskis: ...I'm not sure how GL intends to allow customers to sell them.
Maybe there it doesn't work. For the rest it's simple. You just tell them that you no longer own the game, completely deleted it from your computer and either that's it or in case a new serial is needed they will issue one to the new owner.