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HiPhish: Just because everything else is worse doesn't make Steam good. Getting kicked in the nuts is better than being stabbed in the guts, but it still isn't good. The difference is that some people will put up with getting kicked in the nuts to get their games while others will just say "screw that" and not play at all.
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StingingVelvet: Not sure I agree. The process I just went through was pretty typical before. Steam has just made me realize how much it sucks. Unless you never played PC games I don't get your argument.
I've bought Farcry 3 on Steam and I had to do the exact same thing (including installing Uplay and all that shit). So?
My point is: Steam won't exempt you from that anymore. I wonder if EA had sticked with Valve if Steam would launch Origin as well... It's funny because while playing Farcry 3 you have two overlays... It's even funnier because the Uplay overlay is binded by default to Shift-F2 (while Origin is Shift-F1) What's this? First come first serve? Amusing...
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FAButzke: It's even funnier because the Uplay overlay is binded by default to Shift-F2 (while Origin is Shift-F1) What's this? First come first serve? Amusing...
Just hope and pray that EA or Ubisoft doesn't release a game with Shift+Tab+F1 or Shift+Tab+F2 bound and release it on Steam.

Overlays, overlays everywhere!

(I'm kidding, I'm kidding - I know no developer would be that silly)
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StingingVelvet: Not sure I agree. The process I just went through was pretty typical before. Steam has just made me realize how much it sucks. Unless you never played PC games I don't get your argument.
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FAButzke: I've bought Farcry 3 on Steam and I had to do the exact same thing (including installing Uplay and all that shit). So?
My point is: Steam won't exempt you from that anymore. I wonder if EA had sticked with Valve if Steam would launch Origin as well... It's funny because while playing Farcry 3 you have two overlays... It's even funnier because the Uplay overlay is binded by default to Shift-F2 (while Origin is Shift-F1) What's this? First come first serve? Amusing...
There is no reason why you can not lunch Origin through steam. I think it did at some point?

The reason EA and Valve fell out was over DLC's.
Post edited February 26, 2013 by amok
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FAButzke: I've bought Farcry 3 on Steam and I had to do the exact same thing (including installing Uplay and all that shit). So?
My point is: Steam won't exempt you from that anymore. I wonder if EA had sticked with Valve if Steam would launch Origin as well... It's funny because while playing Farcry 3 you have two overlays... It's even funnier because the Uplay overlay is binded by default to Shift-F2 (while Origin is Shift-F1) What's this? First come first serve? Amusing...
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amok: There is no reason why you can not lunch Origin through steam. I think it did at some point?

The reason EA and Valve fell out was over DLC's.
I know the reasons and I know they work together. (I launch Mass Effect 3 through Steam). But as far as I know, Steam never launched Origin by itself. I was just pointing the irony that you use a client to launch a client and that every new client assumes the next available standard hotkey. (The next one is Shift-F3, unless that's taken as well and I don't know by whom.)
I absolutely hate steam. Why? Here's why...

1. Bought Fallout New Vegas Ultimate Edition on disc.
2. When I ran the installer, it immediately demands internet connection... seriously, why does I have to connect to the internet just to install a frickin game?
3. So, fine, finally relents, I connect, and guess what, the installation takes three hours...
4. And the worst part, Steam feels obligated to install Direct X every damn time I wanted to play the game...

So yeah, please don't blame me when I just bypass your DRM, Steam.
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Devspar: 4. And the worst part, Steam feels obligated to install Direct X every damn time I wanted to play the game...
It's funny because GOG actually does this too. That's why some really small games are still large installers here. It's a problem with Windows and the way DirectX works. If they don't there's no guarantee your system has the right files.

and 3 is down to your internet connection?

2 is the one argument you seem to be making and that's a fair argument if are still buying retail and don't like that.
Post edited February 26, 2013 by Pheace
My new vegas installed from the disc it didn't do that for you?
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Devspar: 4. And the worst part, Steam feels obligated to install Direct X every damn time I wanted to play the game...
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Pheace: It's funny because GOG actually does this too. That's why some really small games are still large installers here. It's a problem with Windows and the way DirectX works. If they don't there's no guarantee your system has the right files.
I don't think he was talking about the mandatory install of DirectX with most games. He's talking about Steam's rather annoying habit of randomly repeating installation procedures every time you start a game (despite having already run it) and leaving you waiting several minutes for the DirectX installer to complete.

It's a problem with the way Steam handles install scripts.
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Pheace: It's funny because GOG actually does this too. That's why some really small games are still large installers here. It's a problem with Windows and the way DirectX works. If they don't there's no guarantee your system has the right files.
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jamyskis: I don't think he was talking about the mandatory install of DirectX with most games. He's talking about Steam's rather annoying habit of randomly repeating installation procedures every time you start a game (despite having already run it) and leaving you waiting several minutes for the DirectX installer to complete.

It's a problem with the way Steam handles install scripts.
hm, I never had that problem. is it something to do about privileges?
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amok: hm, I never had that problem. is it something to do about privileges?
I don't think so. I had this problem on my gaming PC (when I had one) and I still have the problem on my work PC and laptop, which run Windows 7 and Windows XP respectively. It crops up randomly where games would just go through the install process again when I go to play them. It doesn't happen with specific games, although seems to happen more often with indie games.

To be honest, it's not that much of an issue. Given all the other problems I've had with Steam in the past, having to wait 30 seconds for a dodgy install script to finish is the least of problems.
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Devspar: 4. And the worst part, Steam feels obligated to install Direct X every damn time I wanted to play the game...
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Pheace: It's funny because GOG actually does this too. That's why some really small games are still large installers here. It's a problem with Windows and the way DirectX works. If they don't there's no guarantee your system has the right files.
I don't know of any GOG game that tries to install Direct X every time you want to play the game. Sure, it will do it once after installation but not every time you start the game. Steam shouldn't do that either but some people have that problem and some don't. I've seen it being mentioned on the Steam forums from time to time.
I don't know how the Steam client decides that it should prompt you to install DirectX but I've seen it happen to games I haven't played in a while. For example I haven't played UT3 for months and when I tried to play it, it displayed that message as if it was just installed (even though I never uninstalled that game).
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Pheace: It's funny because GOG actually does this too. That's why some really small games are still large installers here. It's a problem with Windows and the way DirectX works. If they don't there's no guarantee your system has the right files.
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OmegaX: I don't know of any GOG game that tries to install Direct X every time you want to play the game. Sure, it will do it once after installation but not every time you start the game. Steam shouldn't do that either but some people have that problem and some don't. I've seen it being mentioned on the Steam forums from time to time.
I don't know how the Steam client decides that it should prompt you to install DirectX but I've seen it happen to games I haven't played in a while. For example I haven't played UT3 for months and when I tried to play it, it displayed that message as if it was just installed (even though I never uninstalled that game).
That may be why I have never experienced it. I tend to only have games I am playing installed. I tend to un-install and install games as and when I want to play something else. (which is why Steam is good for me, I even get to keep my cloud saves...). The few games I have on for longer times, are the ones I keep coming back to regularly.
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OmegaX: I don't know of any GOG game that tries to install Direct X every time you want to play the game. Sure, it will do it once after installation but not every time you start the game. Steam shouldn't do that either but some people have that problem and some don't. I've seen it being mentioned on the Steam forums from time to time.
Yes it's very annoying, I had a similar issue with Dishonored, basically there is something "messed up" in Steam install scripts for the game, you can correct it (I did it at the time) by manually editing the files in question, don't remember how to do it by heart but it's not too hard to find how online. It seems to be a pretty "common" issue.
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eyeliner: From my understanding, folks use Steam because of the extra layer of bullshit, like achievements and social networking features it adds.
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Fenixp: And other bullshit, like workshop for easy access, installation and maintenance of mods, autopatching, for ... Eh, for autopatching, cloud saves for being able to continue playing my game even when I'm on a different computer / harddrive crashes, automatic file verification, so I can fix most of my games with a single button when my game breaks... You know, useless crap like that :-P
I admit I don't know a lot about Steam, how well does the installation and maintenance of mods work? Also, if I edit files, after an update or new patch, would I have to do that all over again? Could it overwrite my changes?

When it comes down to it, my main beef with Steam is that it shouldn't be required to play my games. It should be a service that I want to use, but I could uninstall it at any time without affecting any of my games. I don't see why this should be a problem unless games are actually built to run with Steam (excluding multi-player and social aspects), and if cracking Steam is easy, that's probably not the case.

Does GameShadow work very well? I don't like the adware sound of it but that could be an option too.

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Fenixp: And then there's another point that a certain person has made when I was talking to him recently: When you can resell your stuff, publishers are trying to make games with a lot of longelivity, which in turns leads to tacked-on multiplayer and generally market tends to abandon quality SP games as MP are just more profitable. Sure, it's a natural development, but not really one I like.
This is an argument I don't really understand. A person playing a game longer doesn't make that person pay any more money unless it's a pay to play business model, unless the goal is to have people playing the game because the publishers think that the people who will wait a year before purchasing a game will have to buy new instead of used because everyone is too busy playing a mediocre game's multi-player instead of trading in games and thus create a short supply of that game. This seems negligible to me as most games make most of their money the first couple months anyway. A different way to keep people playing a game is to make modding easy too. I doubt many people gave up their copies of Morrowind, a great game in its own right, but also kept a lot of people playing with mods. I remember seeing new GOTY Editions still selling in brick and mortar stores only a few years ago.

In my experience, I keep games I like and sell forgettable ones that I don't want to ever play or even think about again. I bought the Metal Gear Solid HD Collection and I still kept my original PS2 copies even though I probably won't ever play those versions again just because I really like those games.

On a side note, I will agree with you that an artificially long game is not better than a condensed, short and fun experience. In fact, the way I subjectively value things, if the end result is the same, I'd pay more per minute for the product that saved me more time. Like a yard service, if two are offering the same thing but one is cheaper per hour but also takes a long time, I'd usually go for the other one even if they charge a little bit more for the total job so I don't have to put up with annoying things like listening to the mowers and power tools or have people from the other company in my yard all day.
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Fenixp: And other bullshit, like workshop for easy access, installation and maintenance of mods, autopatching, for ... Eh, for autopatching, cloud saves for being able to continue playing my game even when I'm on a different computer / harddrive crashes, automatic file verification, so I can fix most of my games with a single button when my game breaks... You know, useless crap like that :-P
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KyleKatarn: I admit I don't know a lot about Steam, how well does the installation and maintenance of mods work? Also, if I edit files, after an update or new patch, would I have to do that all over again? Could it overwrite my changes?
I cannot answer the first question because I've never used Steam Workshop (the mod section of Steam). But, as for the second question, you can disable auto-updates for all games or the one you are modding to prevent that you've mentioned from happening. I've modded a few games MANUALLY that way and didn't have any problems at all.