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GameRager: I think SV was trying to illustrate that Steam automates alot of stuff that many who use the service would not rather have to do/learn how to do themselves.
Yeah, not just learning to do it, not wanting to do it. Steam's patch process is all about replacing files, so you never patch right after downloading. Shit, there isn't even a real install process other than the supplemental software, it installs as it downloads.

I'm not saying you can't do otherwise. I remember setting up boot drives and changing my audio drivers and IRQ settings for god's sake, but this experience has reminded me I don't WANT to do all of it. It's annoying. And more mainstream consumers want to even less.

If the alternative was complete DRM free versions right out of the gate on GOG I would take it, but that is not the alternative.
Steam autopatched my Empire Total War once before and installed a patch I couldn't choose not to install which made all text unreadable. So it was play without patches at all or play with the faulty patch. I'd rather have the freedom to choose which patches to install.
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StingingVelvet: Not sure I agree. The process I just went through was pretty typical before. Steam has just made me realize how much it sucks. Unless you never played PC games I don't get your argument.
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HiPhish: Steam is not PC gaming, it's console gaming on PC hardware. True PC gaming is true freedom. With true PC gaming you pop in your disk (or download your installer), launch the insaller, follow the instructions and you're done. But what about automatic updates? Neverwinter Nights has automatic updates and that game is older than Steam. The thing wth Steam is simply that it's better than the other software-consoles.
i'm amok. I am not a "true" pc-gamer.... who the f**k cares....

"true" pc gaming - that is the silliest thing I have seen today.

edit - I can understand the DRM argument, but this is like "I can not fault this, so I will just invent something"...
Post edited February 22, 2013 by amok
Just for the record: I'm not people...
Post edited February 22, 2013 by Randalator
I had similar experience with Batman Arkham Asylum recently, I couldn't start playing it cos Windows Live or something wanted me to endlessly hassle with it. After 30min I said f it and started playing the ps3 version that I fortunately happen to have. Graphics are sh!te compared to the pc version but at least it works.
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cw8: freedom
Most people value convenience more.
Wait, are you including Origin in this "everything else" group?
I know it's nice that Steam streamlines the process & all, but still.
Post edited February 22, 2013 by FantasyNightmare
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Mivas: My experiences with typical Steam game:
1. I buy an access to a game with price tag 75% off, so it's at same price level as boxed copies at local stores (I don't like physical).
2. I have to download 10 gigs overnight (8-10 hours). I mean instead of just downloading it in 30 minutes and install it another 10.
3. I launch the game but I have to wait another 10 minutes until it reinstalls already installed DirectX.
4. It tells me it needs me to install a publisher's SW to run while the store didn't mentioned it anywhere on the site (AC2 comes to mind).
5. I play the game.
6. Next time it threatens me to agree with new Steam's license agreements if I want to play the game I "bought" ever again.
1. Depends where you are and on the game. A lot of the catalogue these days isn't even retail. Of the ones that are the big names may be in a store nearby. The ones I like, probably not.
2. Steam maxes my line quite easily over here and I'm on 50Mbit, perhaps change region?
3. This is nothing particular to Steam. Even GOG has DirectX installs in it's installers. And this is largely because what you may think you already have installed is not necessarily what's required for the game and is certainly not guaranteed to already be preinstalled. Someone else can probably explain it better but it's not as simple as just having DX11 installed.
6. That happened once I think, and at least they tell you before you accept. GOG's terms state that when they change their TOS, you accept it automatically the moment you continue using the service. Sure, you may have pre-downloaded the game already, but for those of us who don't bother with backups anymore that means you're forced to accept the new terms to get to your game anyway.
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cw8: freedom
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PetrusOctavianus: Most people value convenience more.
Not me, I value full control more and am extremely paranoid about games running through clients whether it's Steam, Uplay, Origin or whatever. Not to mention that I have no good experiences with Steam's offline mode. And I play games all over the place, so DRM-free games installed on portable harddisk or thumbdrive is the way to go.
I don´t like Steam. I consider it as a "necessary evil". The only thing that made me install steam was Orange Box when it came out. I actually "hate" digital distributions at all!:-D (of course GOG is a exception because it´s sometimes the only legal way how to get my favourite old game). I don´t like the fact that i must install something that i don´t want to because i bought a game. I just want a nice looking box with a pretty manual and cd in it - install - play and that´s it. If there is a patch it´s my choice to install it...simple. I don´t want to solve problems with clouds, internet registrations,etc..

So i have steam, i occasionally use it, but i don´t like it!:-)
Kind of ironic I came across this. I tried to play Tom Clancy's HAWX 2 today on Steam for the first time ever (I got it in a Tom Clancy pack ages ago). It still requires Uplay to run, and I had to go through a similar series of Uplay updates that you had to go through. So in my case, Steam didn't really help anything. Steam certainly provides benefits when it comes to updating software, but this is a unique case because we're talking about Ubisoft. They are basically the devil when it comes to DRM, and this issue only serves to highlight the complete failure that is Uplay. I want people to pay for software they like, but when it comes to Ubisoft I feel absolutely no pity for them over any lost revenue from piracy. They deserve every bit of it, in my opinion.
Post edited February 22, 2013 by Qwertyman
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amok: i'm amok. I am not a "true" pc-gamer.... who the f**k cares....

"true" pc gaming - that is the silliest thing I have seen today.

edit - I can understand the DRM argument, but this is like "I can not fault this, so I will just invent something"...
Well, he tried to lecture me about PC gamig with Steam, so this is my response. The Steam experience is not PC gaming, i's like running a Nintendo/Sega emulator and saying you're a PC gamer. The reason why we don't need an XBox 360 emulator is because we have Steam. Why do so many PC devs release games on the PS360? Because they want restrictive DRM, so naturally when those games get ported to PC they get locked to Steam, the software-console. If a game can't be developed for console interface it gets locked to the software-console from the start.

I'm not saying you shouldn't use Steam, I don't believe in "movements", but don't act like Newell is the saviour of PC gaming when he is the opposite. (I don't mean you personally, I don't know you, but people in general). And yes, people have been worshipping that guy even though his company doesn't even make games.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bh1-4oZVxoo
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Pheace: 1. Depends where you are and on the game. A lot of the catalogue these days isn't even retail. Of the ones that are the big names may be in a store nearby. The ones I like, probably not.
2. Steam maxes my line quite easily over here and I'm on 50Mbit, perhaps change region?
3. This is nothing particular to Steam. Even GOG has DirectX installs in it's installers. And this is largely because what you may think you already have installed is not necessarily what's required for the game and is certainly not guaranteed to already be preinstalled. Someone else can probably explain it better but it's not as simple as just having DX11 installed.
6. That happened once I think, and at least they tell you before you accept. GOG's terms state that when they change their TOS, you accept it automatically the moment you continue using the service. Sure, you may have pre-downloaded the game already, but for those of us who don't bother with backups anymore that means you're forced to accept the new terms to get to your game anyway.
1. Not really. As long as I have a debit card released in Czech Rep, I can only purchase in one foreign currency, Euro, and only from Czech Republic. There are *always* same or better deals out there if you look at price tag.
2. Good for you. I have changed a server a couple of times but it runs like a crap in 90% cases. It's like dining in a third-rate restaurant compared to everything else I tried.
3. Yeah, I know its some D3D component. But it's *another* step in that infinite process which has to wait for you to click on Play instead of being a part of core installation.
6. I remember clicking on it twice or three-times. My point remains. It's no different from services like Origin. At least Steam defenders (who probably just wants one library for everything) could try being objective.
Post edited February 22, 2013 by Mivas
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StingingVelvet: Call this an outlier experience if you want, blame Ubisoft if you want, but I've had similar experience with other non-steamworks games the past several years. At the end of the day if this game were Steamworks I would have been playing hours and hours ago with less hassle and wouldn't have punkbuster installed on my system.
You would have a point, if Steam didn't sell also games that are connected to these third-party accounts/DRM. But they do.

I am pretty sure some Steam game I installed lately had also some third-party crap. I'll have to check what that was, some useless "companion" utility by some Steam game, for example. I'll try to remember to check which Steam game it was.

Also, even many Steam-fans say on this very forum that people are better off buying e.g. UPlay games from the Ubisoft's site/client directly, not through Steam. Steam is just an additional layer for some of those games.

That's what you get with these account based systems that _require_ clients to run. All I can tell from your message was that you'd prefer if there was only one such client, Steam. But it is understandable that Ubisoft, EA etc. are not willing to let Steam/Valve get a cut for all _their_ games, so of course they add their own clients on top of the games they sell on Steam (and not selling some of them in Steam at all, e.g. Mass Effect 3).

Suddenly these clients are not making our (consumers') lives easier, but more complicated. Fun! Hence, I rather not use such clients at all, _unless_ we are talking about multiplayer games where they do make more sense than with single-player games. I don't object a free-to-play multiplayer game like Team Fortress 2 being a Steam game.
Post edited February 22, 2013 by timppu
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HiPhish: Just because everything else is worse doesn't make Steam good. Getting kicked in the nuts is better than being stabbed in the guts, but it still isn't good. The difference is that some people will put up with getting kicked in the nuts to get their games while others will just say "screw that" and not play at all.
LOL.

Yep. There are thousands and thousands of games out there that don't require Steam, Amazon, or Ubisoft or any of the other crap DRM-stuffed services. So, no, it's not either Steam or nothing.

I've never bought a game on Steam, I only own about 4 games that have any DRM at all thru GamersGate, yet I'm managed to amass a digital library of almost 300 games, at least 200 of which I haven't even played yet.

I'm just not the type of person that HAS to play new games the minute they come out. A)They're too expensive and B) they're usually loaded with DRM.

Give them a couple of years, however, and they'll be on places like GOG or Desura DRM-free.

Meanwhile, if I want to see how a AAA game that's loaded with DRM plays, I go to a friend's house and play a couple of hours there. I won't, however, buy it myself :)
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StingingVelvet: Not sure I agree. The process I just went through was pretty typical before. Steam has just made me realize how much it sucks. Unless you never played PC games I don't get your argument.
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HiPhish: Steam is not PC gaming, it's console gaming on PC hardware. True PC gaming is true freedom. With true PC gaming you pop in your disk (or download your installer), launch the insaller, follow the instructions and you're done. But what about automatic updates? Neverwinter Nights has automatic updates and that game is older than Steam. The thing wth Steam is simply that it's better than the other software-consoles.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
Post edited February 22, 2013 by Bloodygoodgames