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Zeether: They said "never say never" and I am holding them to it. At some point the fat jerk at Star Insurance who is sitting on the rights will realize how much we want this game.
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Nirth: Unlikely, there's no huge community announcement that they will take notice. Besides, for all we know it's EA that's asking too much.

What could help is get the guys over at systemshock.org to start some kind of petition then add the people over here who want a legal, digital copy of both games fixed to work on new hardware/OS.
Well a petition would be a step in the right direction. Kinda take things one step at a time. I really wanna see an idea like that happen. the fan community needs a voice to be heard that stands out above the white noise. So how do we go about doing this? I'm dead serious.

It's one thing to complain and do nothing but talk about a problem we all know too well, its another thing to use that same energy to actually do something. So again, how do we do this.
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Nirth: Unlikely, there's no huge community announcement that they will take notice. Besides, for all we know it's EA that's asking too much.

What could help is get the guys over at systemshock.org to start some kind of petition then add the people over here who want a legal, digital copy of both games fixed to work on new hardware/OS.
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Odonnell435: Well a petition would be a step in the right direction. Kinda take things one step at a time. I really wanna see an idea like that happen. the fan community needs a voice to be heard that stands out above the white noise. So how do we go about doing this? I'm dead serious.

It's one thing to complain and do nothing but talk about a problem we all know too well, its another thing to use that same energy to actually do something. So again, how do we do this.
Establish some contact about the idea at systemshock.org, either just make a thread or PM someone active moderator there that seems to be in the loop of the game(s). If they catch on then make a thread here about it then spread the word to other forums and social media, should get the ball going. If anything will happen, that remains to be seen.
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Odonnell435: Well a petition would be a step in the right direction. Kinda take things one step at a time. I really wanna see an idea like that happen. the fan community needs a voice to be heard that stands out above the white noise. So how do we go about doing this? I'm dead serious.

It's one thing to complain and do nothing but talk about a problem we all know too well, its another thing to use that same energy to actually do something. So again, how do we do this.
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Nirth: Establish some contact about the idea at systemshock.org, either just make a thread or PM someone active moderator there that seems to be in the loop of the game(s). If they catch on then make a thread here about it then spread the word to other forums and social media, should get the ball going. If anything will happen, that remains to be seen.
Well maybe I should make a post on both the System Shock and System Shock 2 areas of the fan forum. The next problem so solve will be how to form both threads, I've played a little of both games so I have a general idea of what to talk about. But how to present it.....that might be a problem.

It's not that I'm trying to be lazy and ask others to do this for me. Heck, I want to do this! It's just that I have a hard time trying to explain or summarize subjects. This is due in some part to my mental condition. I am a high functioning autistic adult that is a little handicapped here and there (depending on stress levels and situations) due to having been diagnosed with Asbergers Syndrome (I'm not ashamed to admit my faults, I just learn from them and move on in order to better myself).

So I want to support this idea, but......I just need help. These games are not only classics in a way I feel that they are a part of video game history. Something that shouldn't be squandered over and left to fade with memory. Okay so what if the games are old compared to now a days. These titles deserve to be remembered and replayed not only by those that originally played it when younger. But by those newer generations that have taken up the torch.

I may be putting to much heart into this but It's how I feel. It just makes me even more upset as to the IP's status of permanent limbo thanks in part to an insurance company of all things that wouldn't know what do to with it if they even tried. I will be damned if I'm going to let this IP like so many others lost to time and memory be forgotten.

Sorry if this is so wordy and doesn't make sense at times, but when I get riled up on a subject that really grinds me the wrong way this is how I express my frustration. it's not perfect but it's the best I can do.
I think it's great you put an effort into it but if you don't feel you can make petition yourself just act as a contact between other forums and ask if they know any decent writer that preferably have played and enjoyed both games (why I hinted at an active moderator at SS fan forums).

I think the important thing is to establish two audience, first to attract the players then attract EA/insurance company. The petition will need two things, a decent number and an estimate of what those companies can make. Let's assume they each could make a cut of 30% if they sell the game here (as System Shock 1+2 package) at a price point of 9$, that's 3$ per sale and considering the wishlist there's about 28,000 people signed, that's about 60k$ at the lowest assuming the price and profit cut. Now if we add people's at other forums especially the systemshock.org we might be ablet to squeeze a few more thousand, I'm not sure how successful the games were but in the link about the history I sent the first game sold 170k units and apparently the sequel didn't make much better.

I think it will take at least 50,000 people, preferably closer to 100,000 to make EA/insurance company interested at all for this. However, if it at the same time sparks an interest that they see they might also catch up on the idea to make System Shock 3 and that should be included in the petition, that might make them more interested.
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Nirth: I think it's great you put an effort into it but if you don't feel you can make petition yourself just act as a contact between other forums and ask if they know any decent writer that preferably have played and enjoyed both games (why I hinted at an active moderator at SS fan forums).

I think the important thing is to establish two audience, first to attract the players then attract EA/insurance company. The petition will need two things, a decent number and an estimate of what those companies can make. Let's assume they each could make a cut of 30% if they sell the game here (as System Shock 1+2 package) at a price point of 9$, that's 3$ per sale and considering the wishlist there's about 28,000 people signed, that's about 60k$ at the lowest assuming the price and profit cut. Now if we add people's at other forums especially the systemshock.org we might be ablet to squeeze a few more thousand, I'm not sure how successful the games were but in the link about the history I sent the first game sold 170k units and apparently the sequel didn't make much better.

I think it will take at least 50,000 people, preferably closer to 100,000 to make EA/insurance company interested at all for this. However, if it at the same time sparks an interest that they see they might also catch up on the idea to make System Shock 3 and that should be included in the petition, that might make them more interested.
Heh, that does seem a little daunting doesn't it. I.....I could try and see if I can contact someone from that website. I'll just need to make an account and see what I can do. Well no one said this would be easy either.

You know, I kinda had this one dumb idea. I thought that if maybe we could garner enough support and get the ball rolling on the fan side. Maybe we could...I don't know....try and convince EA could try an start a kickstarter campaign to raise additional funds to try and smooth things over with that insurance company. Granted, if both sides actually freaking agree and if EA promised in a way to release the series on GOG.
Post edited September 27, 2012 by Odonnell435
I've tossed around the idea of some Facebook fan page like the whole Mega Man Legends 3 thing, but since that turned out to not work well (they still are trying but Capcom has pretty much not listened at all) I have my doubts...
Post edited September 27, 2012 by Zeether
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Zeether: I've tossed around the idea of some Facebook fan page like the whole Mega Man Legends 3 thing, but since that turned out to not work well (they still are trying but Capcom has pretty much not listened at all) I have my doubts...
Well I'll try either way to see what I can do. Just not tonight or tomorrow, my allergies finally kicked me in the head and I'm just gonna go lay down and stay home. I hate this time of year.

Edit: I'll just leave something a little inspirational here before I go : )
Attachments:
Post edited September 27, 2012 by Odonnell435
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johnki: http://kotaku.com/5946462/whoah-system-shock-2-and-thief-2-just-got-surprise-patches

Anyone seen this yet?

Awesome! IT EVEN HAS SUPPORT FOR 1920x1080 RESOLUTIONS!

Totally going to try this on Thief 2. I don't have SS2 though so I can't try it on that, but the day it hits GOG, I'm buying it.
Amazing! It finally works with my crappy nVidia laptop video card. Before, the minimum resolution of my computer wouldn't allow Thief 2 to open a game. With this patch, it works with zero issues. Thanks for this link. I am a huge fan of this game, and was sad to learn that it wasn't compatible with my newest computer. Already started my (maybe 50th) playthrough.
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Zeether: God, I hope so. I want SS2 SO FREAKING BAD and copies cost WAY, WAY, WAY TOO MUCH on Amazon. I would LOVE to have the game now, and I am so close to writing letters to MeadowBrook and EA and the other parties involved about the game's potential and the fact that we want it on GOG.

I think this is our time to rise up and DO SOMETHING. We need to act on this. Something needs to be done. No one's started a "Save System Shock 2" campaign at all and this is ridiculous.
Jesus dude, download the fucking thing off a torrent. Who are you denying money too? No one sells it. If it ever comes out again then buy it at that time.

Rights issues could keep it from being sold again forever. Are you just going to never play it?
There seems to be a general misunderstanding of how the rights ended up with an insurance company. They didn't just swoop in and grab the rights when LGS went out of business and they aren't inherently evil for wanting to sell them. It's a shame, but if you were in their shoes, you'd have to make the same decision.

The fact is that someone along the way took an insurance policy out in case of a loss event with LGS. It had to have been someone that had the ability to transfer the rights in the first place, so more than likely an investor or someone high up in LGS. Whoever that was, signed the contract with the insurance company that granted them the rights to the IP in case of a loss. The decision was made by whoever this person was, not the insurance company. There is also a high likelihood that without this policy, the games would have never happened in the first place.

When LGS went under, the insurance company paid out and took the IP, probably with the intentions of selling the IP to recover their losses. That is a perfectly natural and reasonable thing to expect, you can't blame them for that. If you want to blame someone, blame the people that signed the contract with those terms in the first place AND made the arrangement with EA (I hate to say it, but the situation with EA just goes to show that someone wasn't thinking really far ahead)

As for selling the existing games and/or IP, it's not as simple as them just setting it up and selling it. They have to make arrangements with EA and the reseller, in addition to other legal and technical nonsense. This also costs money, that they would want to recover in addition to covering their losses from when LGS went under.

They aren't a bunch of suits sitting around laughing at how they keep this IP from us. It'd be great if they made both SS1 and SS2 available for the sake of the community, but they aren't a charity and it's unreasonable to assume they will do that when they have costs to cover. Remember that at this point, they are operating at a loss when they paid out whoever took this insurance policy out, probably a significant one.

Unless people understand that, you'll never be able to work with them or get anywhere. It'd be awesome if we could, but until someone comes along with agreeable terms for both EA and the insurance company, it's not gonna happen. That person is gonna have to have enough maturity and business sense to realize why things are this way. If you want to convince them to put up SS1 and SS2 for sale, you have to prove it's going to cover the expenses they incur to do it and be profitable or beneficial to them, along with covering their own losses.

On a lighter note, I just paid $140 for SS2 on eBay, ugh :(
Post edited October 06, 2012 by jkertz
That's understandable. What one could do is make en estimation, out of the 30k on wishlist at 10$ that would mean a revenue of 300k$ and then ask EA and the insurance company wants in return and the minimum limit. I doubt a simple customer will able to arrange this, I think it's better if a customers got in contact with someone influential in the business and let them ask if they could do it.

On your eBay purchase, ouch. That's a lot.
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jkertz: ...
Highly reasonable comment, thank you. If they're operating at a lose, then it seems to me either they will want to try to recoup some of that lose (seems good) or they will want to just "let it go" and focus on other things (seems bad).

WHY did you not torrent it? :P

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Nirth: That's understandable. What one could do is make en estimation, out of the 30k on wishlist at 10$ that would mean a revenue of 300k$ and then ask EA and the insurance company wants in return and the minimum limit. I doubt a simple customer will able to arrange this, I think it's better if a customers got in contact with someone influential in the business and let them ask if they could do it.

On your eBay purchase, ouch. That's a lot.
What should we assume? We've got about 30,000 votes for SS2, and 20,000 for SS. $10 would almost make sense, but given the crazy-high desire of these games, if GOG could entice both parties with a $20 price tag for both games (bundle), that might almost be worth it. 50,000 x 20 = a cool million. :)

(Only problem is, it might set a precedent for other companies to want more money; GOG would have to put their foot down and say, "Look, System Shock was a SUPER special case...". I dunno.)
Post edited October 06, 2012 by tfishell
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Nirth: That's understandable. What one could do is make en estimation, out of the 30k on wishlist at 10$ that would mean a revenue of 300k$ and then ask EA and the insurance company wants in return and the minimum limit.
Ouch.

Sorry, but do you have any understanding of how business works? This is not meant as an attack, it's just that first I see you complaining about GOG not putting up big enough warnings before games leave the catalogue (when doing so is likely to incur legal risks), and now you come with such a naive calculation, it makes me wonder.

In no way can you assume that every vote on a wishlist translates into a sale. People who have voted may not be here anymore, may not be willing or able to pay more than 3$, may never have existed at all (vote bumping), may have gotten a pirated version of the game in the meantime and lost interest in buying it, etc. etc. You're also ignoring the expenses. And - _asking_ for a "minimum limit" in business negotiations? Seriously?

Also, while the Insurance company is apparently willing to sell their rights (and unwilling to publish the games themselves, since they are an insurance company and have no experience in that market, nor any inclination to get some), I haven't heard such a statement from EA. This means that every investor who buys the rights from the insurance company will still be dependent on EA. This is, unfortunately, a pretty bad basis for a deal.
Post edited October 06, 2012 by Psyringe
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Nirth: I doubt a simple customer will able to arrange this, I think it's better if a customers got in contact with someone influential in the business and let them ask if they could do it.
I doubt getting the insurance company to contact you and deal with them wouldn't be THAT difficult. They aren't that big of an organization and someone writing a blog post was able to get in touch with them pretty easily. Dealing with EA, on the other hand, may be a bit more challenging, but I have a hard time believing that the insurance company doesn't already have contacts there given they are tethered together on this.

You'd probably want to consult with an attorney that knows intellectual property rights and law though. They'd be able to come up with a more accurate picture of what can and can't be done. They would also be the best people to have talk with EA and the insurance company.

In my naive opinion of the matter, the most likely scenario at this time is to come up with some kind of arrangement where SS1 and SS2 are sold via a reseller like GOG, but where both parties still retain their current rights to the IP. This would not allow a 3rd game to be made, but at least 1 & 2 can be sold again in some capacity. I don't know how legally feasible this is or practical it is given the situation with EA or their expectations of recouping their expenses. We also have to consider the possibility that the insurance company obtained a pile of hardware when LGS closed and hasn't bothered to remove the sources or important bits. This would mean someone would have to go through and find everything before it could be packaged again, they may not even know what they have and don't have (I'd actually be willing to volunteer time doing this, if the other stuff was sorted out. I've been down this road before, just under different circumstances, so that'd cut some cost out).

The best route, IMO, is to consult with a competent attorney familiar with IP rights and preferably other facets of this situation. This may be a stretch, but contacting the EFF for a referral may be an interesting way of finding who to use, maybe they know someone who has handled a similar situation before. If not, doing some digging should come up with someone reasonable. They (lawyer) would be able to give us a practical idea of what can and can't be done, along with consulting w/ the insurance company's lawyer and get a picture of what they are looking for, how cooperative they will be, their relationship to EA, and the physical state of what would be needed to coordinate a release. There are other factors to consider, but that's a start.

What I find hard to believe is that this hasn't been tried before, especially with GOG. They've had a lot of contact with several game companies and managed to work things out before, I'd be shocked if they hadn't already contacted the insurance company to try and work something out. I'd be interested to get some input from them on what their experiences were, before anyone tried anything else. It's possible they did all this and ran into a brick wall (or it's still ongoing).

So, anyone from GOG want to comment? ;)

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jkertz: ...
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tfishell: Highly reasonable comment, thank you. If they're operating at a lose, then it seems to me either they will want to try to recoup some of that lose (seems good) or they will want to just "let it go" and focus on other things (seems bad).

WHY did you not torrent it? :P
I have a boxed copy of SS1 I traded for a $25 Babbages gift card in 1998. I wanted a boxed copy of SS2, I am also really not a fan of torrents. The security issues aside, I prefer to own a copy of the software in some capacity :)

The point is also that there is a very willing market out there for both SS1 and SS2, I saw a package of both selling for close to $300. People (myself include) are paying over $100 for original boxed copies of the game (yea, I know it's crazy). I've paid less for many other boxed/sealed classic games.

As for recovering costs, I don't know what type of costs we are talking about. I'd suppose that depends on what they calculate their costs as being and what type of payout/loss they had when LGS closed down. Given that SS2 and Thief 2 didn't perform very well commercially, it's possible that the projected income from those games was way off what LGS expected and the losses significant. This comes down to what I mentioned earlier, someone with experience in this area needs to get on the phone with them and see what they are expecting along with getting relevant details. We can speculate all day long, but none of us were involved in the loss or with the insurance company.

I'd THINK (it may be naive) that you'd be easier convincing everyone involved to resell SS1 and SS2 via GOG or other means than you would be obtaining the necessary rights to create a 3rd game (which seems to have been the focus for other efforts). If you can construct it in such a way that the rights holders are still able to keep their rights to the game and for producing new IP, it may be an easier path. I don't know though, I'm sure that comes with it's own complications, especially if another party decides to buy the rights for a 3rd game at a later date. These things can be worked out, I'm sure, it's just a matter of covering the costs involved, for us and them. The more complicated the construct, the more expensive it is for everyone.

There is also the possibility someone else mentioned earlier, that EA is the one being difficult. I don't know what kind of contribution they would have to put into reselling the game vs creating new IP, it may be less, but that'd be a question for someone else :)
Post edited October 06, 2012 by jkertz
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Nirth: That's understandable. What one could do is make en estimation, out of the 30k on wishlist at 10$ that would mean a revenue of 300k$ and then ask EA and the insurance company wants in return and the minimum limit.
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Psyringe: Ouch.

Sorry, but do you have any understanding of how business works? This is not meant as an attack, it's just that first I see you complaining about GOG not putting up big enough warnings before games leave the catalogue (when doing so is likely to incur legal risks), and now you come with such a naive calculation, it makes me wonder.

In no way can you assume that every vote on a wishlist translates into a sale. People who have voted may not be here anymore, may not be willing or able to pay more than 3$, may never have existed at all (vote bumping), may have gotten a pirated version of the game in the meantime and lost interest in buying it, etc. etc. You're also ignoring the expenses. And - _asking_ for a "minimum limit" in business negotiations? Seriously?

Also, while the Insurance company is apparently willing to sell their rights (and unwilling to publish the games themselves, since they are an insurance company and have no experience in that market, nor any inclination to get some), I haven't heard such a statement from EA. This means that every investor who buys the rights from the insurance company will still be dependent on EA. This is, unfortunately, a pretty bad basis for a deal.
Haha, not meant as an attack? I don't know how to take it any other way but I'll try to explain it more clearly.

First, the warnings wasn't my fault and I never blamed GOG, I was just annoyed. Then apparently they did give a warning about Perimeter and that soldier game via sale before going off the shelves. Acceptable considering they said it was going to be temporary but considering TET and a few others were really loud about their opinion to defend GOG to not be able to this I think it was rather hypocritical. I guess you missed that part as well.

Secondly, the estimation was just a simple measure. I am well aware that people bumps the wishlist and probably even make multiple accounts because they might think a higher number will help as well as people finding a eBay copy or a pirate copy and already finished it and has no intention of buying. That minimum requirement would include expenses. I'm not sure what got you out of the chair.

Third, I'm not sure if your last comment had anything to do with my post but I agree.
Post edited October 06, 2012 by Nirth