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Orkhepaj: why don't they lock down supermarkets?
Where do you suppose people will get food if they do that?
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Orkhepaj: why don't they lock down supermarkets?
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dtgreene: Where do you suppose people will get food if they do that?
from small shops
you maybe dont know but people didnt starve to death before supermarkets appeared
Post edited January 21, 2021 by Orkhepaj
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dtgreene: Where do you suppose people will get food if they do that?
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Orkhepaj: from small shops
you maybe dont know but people didnt starve to death before supermarkets appeared
But wouldn't they also be closed if the situation is severe enough to close supermarkets?
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Orkhepaj: from small shops
you maybe dont know but people didnt starve to death before supermarkets appeared
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dtgreene: But wouldn't they also be closed if the situation is severe enough to close supermarkets?
why should we close small shops first and not the large ones?
anyway it looks like closing them doesnt even slow down the spread
Post edited January 21, 2021 by Orkhepaj
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GamezRanker: Actually, according to official data(cdc and such) a good number of the places with some of the strictest lockdowns had the some of the highest case totals.
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real.geizterfahr: Yeah, well... how to explain this...? Easy! They didn't have those numbers because of a lockdown. They had a lockdown because of the numbers! Shocking, I know...
Honestly, there are enough countries with numerous lockdowns by now. You can clearly see that they work.
Funny, that you say the lockdowns work, when there is a fully peer reviewed paper that says otherwise.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/eci.13484
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real.geizterfahr: Yeah, well... how to explain this...? Easy! They didn't have those numbers because of a lockdown. They had a lockdown because of the numbers! Shocking, I know...
Honestly, there are enough countries with numerous lockdowns by now. You can clearly see that they work.
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john_hatcher: Funny, that you say the lockdowns work, when there is a fully peer reviewed paper that says otherwise.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/eci.13484
Did they do a test with mandatory masks too? Wonder if those help at all or not.
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kohlrak: And you find that what people do is compensate.
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real.geizterfahr: That's exactly what I was talking about. People aren't aware that there's this virus-thingy. Close restaurants and they'll meet at home. And this is exactly why most restrictions don't work. And when you tell them that it's lockdown-time again, they start crying about how they followed all the rules and that a lockdown is a crime against humanity -.- People are stupid.
Or maybe it's their choice. I'm finding lockdown supporters breaking lockdowns restrictions all the time. Lockdown arachitects have even been caught flouting the rules. I'd much, much rather go after the people that let it into these countries in the first place. I notice no one ever seems to criticize China's response or the response of people who knew about china's response well before it ever made it across the world. No no, focus on the lockdown breakers, which includes the people advocating for it. Sounds more like governments are being asked to control people by people who can't control themselves.

But, hey, let's keep trying to do this thing, and watch people find new ways to compensate, meanwhile find that manages to do more overall damage but not actually do anything about the problem we thought it was going to solve. I mean, common, you'd think if something doesn't work and turns out to be entirely impractical, you'd learn and not try to do the thing harder. But, for some reason, just as people are "stupid" to ignore the lockdowns, i'd argue people are "stupid" to propose them. They don't work. What do we call it when people do the same thing over and over again expecting a different result?
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kohlrak: I'd love to see you somehow pull that off, just as an exercise.
Have a look at Germany, Austria, Spain, Italy, Portugal, Greece... It's done all the time in Europe. Where I live it currently isn't allowed to meet anyone who doesn't live in your household (restaurants, bars, gyms, shopping centers and huge stores closed, curfew from 10 p.m. to 6 a.m.). That's what "lockdown" means in Europe. And guess what? Numbers are going down drastically. I live on an island with a population of ~1 milion people. We had 400 or 500 cases a day. Today we had 200 (last few days ~250). In March and April we weren't even allowed to leave our houses except for buying food (at the closest supermarket) or going to work. In May you were allowed to go outside. But not when and where you wanted! Only 1 kilometer (0.6 miles) and only at a certain time (parents with their kids, older population and the rest of us had a different "schedule" when we were allowed to go outside).
So you're saying people actually obeyed these lockdown rules and didn't meet up in stores? I heard those George Floyd protests totally didn't happen in europe.

Oh, and how is that curfew going to keep people apart? See, we have this problem in the US where Walmarts stopped being a 24/hr shopping center. In the past, if i wanted to go to walmart and buy food without running into people (like during flu outbreaks), i could go at 1AM. Now everyone's being shoved in at about the same times.

Meanwhile, you know where it's safest to go in the US right now, from what i've seen? Cities full of people. Why? Because they all got it back in March, so they still have immunity. I've been telling people to go to the nearest city to do their shopping because the case numbers are lowest in those locations (they're about the same as rural areas, but when you normalize for population density, your chances of infection per encounter are significantly lower).
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kohlrak: I don't know what it's like in Spain, but most people around the world don't have more than, maybe, two week's worth of food in storage, at the most.
You can still buy food here. Supermarkets, computer stores, farmacies and other essential stuff is still open. But telling people that they have two days left to buy their christmas gifts before everything non-essential has to close, was a silly decision.
Well, like i said, it wasn't just Christmas gifts they were warned for. But, i would agree, there's no reason for Christmas gifts. Maybe warning traveling businessmen that they need to go home to shut down their factory, however, is warranted. You could argue there shouldn't be traveling businessmen, but, then again, who the hell pays these politicians to order the lockdowns? I sure as hell don't recall voting for it nor hearing about a vote in any other country.
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john_hatcher: Funny, that you say the lockdowns work, when there is a fully peer reviewed paper that says otherwise.
https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/epdf/10.1111/eci.13484
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Orkhepaj: Did they do a test with mandatory masks too? Wonder if those help at all or not.
You don't have to be a rocket scientist to see that they do. See this post and feel free to find the fault in logic.
Post edited January 22, 2021 by kohlrak
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Orkhepaj: from small shops
you maybe dont know but people didnt starve to death before supermarkets appeared
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dtgreene: But wouldn't they also be closed if the situation is severe enough to close supermarkets?
I'm goign to second what Orkhepaj is implying, and take it a step further: preferring small stores over larger stores would've lowered distribution rates. As it stands right now, however, my experience is that everything in my area other than walmart has even employees violating company masking policies. It's as if these companies know that walmart would be the only one reported to regulators (i do wonder where they get that idea[/sarcasm]).
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There have been some tests on masks and their effectivness. A lot of news reports are twisting this to say any mask work while ignoring what type of mask they are talking about i.e surgical types and simple fixes like having a proper seal to
increase effectivness.If you have been wearing these ones you will have found unless you press them onto your face
you can still smell perfumes and smoke.
Previous research has found that aerosols dispersed by infected people are a
source of transmission of the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes COVID-19, even outside
the two-meter social distancing zone widely recommended by public health officials.
The study showed that most common masks, primarily due to problems with fit, filter
about 10 percent of exhaled aerosol droplets. The remaining aerosols are redirected,
mostly out the top of the mask where it fits over the nose, and escape into the
ambient air unfiltered.
https://scitechdaily.com/most-common-covid-masks-only-filter-about-10-of-exhaled-aerosol-droplets/



The next test is stating the obvious and not all masks with valves vent down.Perhaps they should stick another filter onto it.
This video, created using a light scattering technique, shows airflow
dynamics when wearing an N95 mask with an exhalation valve (left) and without an
exhalation valve (center). Masks with valves do not slow the spread of COVID and
should not be worn for that purpose, according to the CDC. Credit: Matthew
Staymates/NIST
https://scitechdaily.com/airflow-videos-clearly-show-why-masks-with-exhalation-valves-do-not-slow-the-spread-of-covid-19/



This article looks at what is coming off the masks when they are disposed.
Traces of concerning heavy metals (i.e. lead up to 6.79 µg/L) were detected
in association with silicon containing fragments. ICP-MS also confirmed the presence
of other leachable metals like cadmium (up to 1.92 µg/L), antimony (up to 393 µg/L)
and copper (up to 4.17 µg/L). LC-MS analysis identified polar leachable organic
species related to plastic additives and contaminants; polyamide-66 monomer and
oligomers (nylon-66 synthesis), surfactant molecules, dye-like molecules and
polyethylene glycol were all tentatively identified in the leachate. The toxicity of
some of the chemicals found and the postulated risks of the rest of the present
particles and molecules, raises the question of whether DPFs are safe to be used on
a daily basis and what consequences are to be expected after their disposal into the
environment.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0043135421002311
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.watres.2021.117033

If masks have a health cost by using them then the better than nothing argument fails and it become a case of where the hell are better face filters and masks that people can use all day safely?
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Yeah, surgical and cloth mask probably aren't very useful, and the thing about masks with valves should be self-explanatory.
I think the N95/FFP2 masks might still have some effect in public transport and the like. But given that vaccines are now universally available I don't see how masking mandates can be kept up beyond next winter.
We're gonna close this necro thread now.