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Dashe: I was raised Catholic for most of my early childhood. My mom was a late-in-life convert. Very devout. Very militant. I had to go to CCD on Saturday mornings. I was questioning it from about the third grade onward when I stopped believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, but my mom kept dragging me to church and CCD despite many, many long, annoying protests.
I'm sorry, but among the many reasons to reject Christianity, comparing it to believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus is among the most intellectually lazy of them. It may be fine for a third grader to do, but as you grow older, it amounts to rejecting something that you know very little about, on par with people who think violent video games cause the world's problems.

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Dashe: I didn't get the guts to approach the priest about it until I was about to make confirmation, which I didn't really want to do because I didn't believe in the religion at all. He wound up telling off my mom for being so militant that she probably wound up turning me off to religion even more than withdrawing me from CCD and letting me skip church once in a while would have done. I kind of felt ripped off, since CCD ends after confirmation. If I'd reported it sooner, I'd have probably been able to knock off a few more of those years I wasted trying to flunk out on purpose. @_@
It seems like the media is so anxious to tell us about any negative thing that a priest does that we never hear about all the good that they do, so it's nice to hear about one making the right move.

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Dashe: Actually, the people who've given me problems have nearly all been Baptists and Megachurch attendees instead. I actually made the mistake of going to one once. The girl who invited me would not stop telling me I needed to go back until I gave her a very, very stern lecture. There were also a TON of solicitors. These places were like churches run by very pushy marketers. @_@
Speaking as a Baptist, whenever someone says they don't like Baptists for a certain reason, I always wonder about who these other Baptists are because it sounds nothing like my church.

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orcishgamer: In a strict and logical sense, yes, but any religion that doesn't inspire most of its followers to basic decency is hardly a religion worth a damn.
I agree, but no religion is immune to outside influences. If someone behaves indecently, you should always look at their motivating factors. If their religion is telling them to behave that way, then you should blame their religion, but if they are following a politician, then you should blame politics.
Post edited February 09, 2013 by Soyeong
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Adzeth: I didn't quite get what you're trying to say. As in, what's the problem, how has being nice failed to pay off, what and huh?

I guess there's some context I'm not getting or something.
Same here. If you're respectful and tactful, there shouldn't be any reason to worry about being "nice." If, however, you want to debate them and try to get them to see the error of their ways, or tell them they're stupid for believing what they believe, well, then, that wouldn't be so nice.

If it's a constant conversation, do your best to bow out. If it's just something that is, don't try to be pushy about it and constantly bring it up. It always pays to be nice, even if you may not see it at the moment.
How curious to take a peek at those international personal perspectives, my sociology sense is tingling.
Post edited February 09, 2013 by Robette
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Dashe: I was raised Catholic for most of my early childhood. My mom was a late-in-life convert. Very devout. Very militant. I had to go to CCD on Saturday mornings. I was questioning it from about the third grade onward when I stopped believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, but my mom kept dragging me to church and CCD despite many, many long, annoying protests.
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Soyeong: I'm sorry, but among the many reasons to reject Christianity, comparing it to believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus is among the most intellectually lazy of them. It may be fine for a third grader to do, but as you grow older, it amounts to rejecting something that you know very little about, on par with people who think violent video games cause the world's problems.
Yeah, it's cool. That reasoning lasted only a short while. You can't disprove the existence of god by catching your mom answering prayers on film, after all. It was a logical starting point toward atheism at the time, though. I also thought Wolfenstein 3D used real 3D graphics at that age, and that Sailor Moon's dub acting was pretty great. Yeeeeeah.

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Soyeong: It seems like the media is so anxious to tell us about any negative thing that a priest does that we never hear about all the good that they do, so it's nice to hear about one making the right move.
I don't know where the media gets this idea, either. I've never actually run into a Catholic priest who's done anything creepy or suspicious in my life. All of them that I've met and spoken with have been polite and cordial.

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Soyeong: Speaking as a Baptist, whenever someone says they don't like Baptists for a certain reason, I always wonder about who these other Baptists are because it sounds nothing like my church.
I was in a conservative part of Georgia during my run-ins with the pushy Baptists, if that helps narrow it down. Being atheist in the south is no picnic. Gotta consider the wording of the original sentence here. "Nearly all the people who've given me trouble have been Baptist or Megachurch attendees" is very different from saying "Baptists and Megachurch attendees are the ones who usually give me trouble."
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Dashe: "Nearly all the people who've given me trouble have been Baptist or Megachurch attendees" is very different from saying "Baptists and Megachurch attendees are the ones who usually give me trouble."
Do you mean by megachurch something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch

...ive never heard the expression before, then again - i am not really to the "scene" either.
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Dashe: "Nearly all the people who've given me trouble have been Baptist or Megachurch attendees" is very different from saying "Baptists and Megachurch attendees are the ones who usually give me trouble."
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iippo: Do you mean by megachurch something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch

...ive never heard the expression before, then again - i am not really to the "scene" either.
Yep, just like that. The one I got dragged to by my classmate was like going to a Christian rock concert with a sermon, and I don't even like rock to start with.
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iippo: Do you mean by megachurch something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch

...ive never heard the expression before, then again - i am not really to the "scene" either.
That's pretty much it. From what I've seen, some of the Megachurches some of the churches have a large attendance because the pastors tell them what they want to hear while avoiding the some of gritty things that Jesus taught, but many are not like that. When they have that many people in a community, they are able to organize and accomplish a tremendous amount of good for their community and worldwide.
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Red_Avatar: Christmas is being replaced by Winter Festivities - which is fine in a way because the religious theme had nothing to do with a tree and ornaments in the first place.
I'd rather celebrate the solstices and equinoxes, over the course of human history these have meant far more to humanity than whatever religion has contributed. Plus, many of the traditional stuff from various cultures is actually fun, hell, most of the fun parts of religious holidays were adapted from these anyway.
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lukaszthegreat: You want to give your kid a choice then in Poland you should baptize him otherwise you are limiting is future options and hurting hi in potential future without really any point.
But why stop at that? Why not also have him circumcised in case he wants to become a jew? It will only be more painful later.
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Dashe: I was raised Catholic for most of my early childhood. My mom was a late-in-life convert. Very devout. Very militant. I had to go to CCD on Saturday mornings. I was questioning it from about the third grade onward when I stopped believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, but my mom kept dragging me to church and CCD despite many, many long, annoying protests.
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Soyeong: I'm sorry, but among the many reasons to reject Christianity, comparing it to believing in the tooth fairy and Santa Claus is among the most intellectually lazy of them. It may be fine for a third grader to do, but as you grow older, it amounts to rejecting something that you know very little about, on par with people who think violent video games cause the world's problems.
It's a perfectly fine analogy to make, assuming the GP is referring to the belief in Santa Clause prior to knowing the truth.

Also, Atheists and Agnostics and those that quit their religion usually know more about religion in general than folks that stick with what they were born into.

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Dashe: I didn't get the guts to approach the priest about it until I was about to make confirmation, which I didn't really want to do because I didn't believe in the religion at all. He wound up telling off my mom for being so militant that she probably wound up turning me off to religion even more than withdrawing me from CCD and letting me skip church once in a while would have done. I kind of felt ripped off, since CCD ends after confirmation. If I'd reported it sooner, I'd have probably been able to knock off a few more of those years I wasted trying to flunk out on purpose. @_@
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Soyeong: It seems like the media is so anxious to tell us about any negative thing that a priest does that we never hear about all the good that they do, so it's nice to hear about one making the right move.
Perhaps, if the Church would engage in things worthy of praise it might make the news. Considering that Catholic charities pulled out of Massachusetts when they were forced to provide services across the board, including to homosexuals, it's rich to claim that it's just a media perception. The Church does some good and in exchange the Church expects to have it's way whenever it wants.

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Dashe: Actually, the people who've given me problems have nearly all been Baptists and Megachurch attendees instead. I actually made the mistake of going to one once. The girl who invited me would not stop telling me I needed to go back until I gave her a very, very stern lecture. There were also a TON of solicitors. These places were like churches run by very pushy marketers. @_@
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Soyeong: Speaking as a Baptist, whenever someone says they don't like Baptists for a certain reason, I always wonder about who these other Baptists are because it sounds nothing like my church.
You're probably not a Southern Baptist then, from what I can tell it's usually the Southern Baptists that people are complaining about. The ones here in the Northwest tend to be a lot less Bible bumpy.

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lukaszthegreat: You want to give your kid a choice then in Poland you should baptize him otherwise you are limiting is future options and hurting hi in potential future without really any point.
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Mrstarker: But why stop at that? Why not also have him circumcised in case he wants to become a jew? It will only be more painful later.
Because you'd be mutilating healthy flesh and doctors that perform the surgery are in blatant violation of the Hippocratic oath.

You can't undo the damage in case the child grows up and decides not to join a religion that requires that. It always causes permanent damage, but it sometimes causes serious life long problems up to and including loss of the penis.

What's more, there's basically no medical reason to do that proactively when proper hygiene can keep the risk of infection to manageable levels.
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iippo: Do you mean by megachurch something like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megachurch

...ive never heard the expression before, then again - i am not really to the "scene" either.
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Soyeong: That's pretty much it. From what I've seen, some of the Megachurches some of the churches have a large attendance because the pastors tell them what they want to hear while avoiding the some of gritty things that Jesus taught, but many are not like that. When they have that many people in a community, they are able to organize and accomplish a tremendous amount of good for their community and worldwide.
Yeah, and the worst ones are the ones that preach the "Prosperity Gospel" which seems to involve giving the preacher a ton of money so that the members of the congregation can get rich.

I think it's safe to assume that we agree on how heretical that is.
Post edited February 10, 2013 by hedwards
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Mrstarker: But why stop at that? Why not also have him circumcised in case he wants to become a jew? It will only be more painful later.
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hedwards: Because you'd be mutilating healthy flesh and doctors that perform the surgery are in blatant violation of the Hippocratic oath.

You can't undo the damage in case the child grows up and decides not to join a religion that requires that. It always causes permanent damage, but it sometimes causes serious life long problems up to and including loss of the penis.

What's more, there's basically no medical reason to do that proactively when proper hygiene can keep the risk of infection to manageable levels.
I was being facetious. Poe's law, I guess...
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orcishgamer: You seriously think teaching your child that they have to conform to shit they don't like and you don't support is a good life lesson?

They? They don't like? What are you talking about? Who is forcing anyone here to support anything? I criticize not baptizing the child in Poland because it limits child's choice without any significant reason.
[Quote]Fucking A, man, the reality is he'll do far more for his child by teaching him how to deal with differences in an intolerant and religious society than by being a hypocritical, go through the motions weakling.
It is about limiting his choice. You can teach him those lessons without impacting his future possibilities and causing him unneeded harm.

You teach your child how to be a decent person while maintaining their own beliefs, how to be polite when others offend, and how to make peace with their own beliefs as opposed to the beliefs of others.
Agreed but how does baptism prevents that.

At the risk of being even more polemical, do you also think Rosa Parks should have just shut the fuck up, because that's the reality she lived in?
It is her life so she could do wtf she wanted with it. So can any other grown up. You don't use your kid for that tough when the process is of baptism is harmless. A bit of water one hour wait and fifty bucks in fees. Done, and you can live your life without ever caring about it

Some things are worth changing, shit like you're describing is among them. Being a coward and just "living with it" is sure as hell not the way to go about it.
The use your own life to do that. Don't push your belief system on the kid when it can bite him on the ass in the future.
Up until I was 22 I was at times an Agnostic and at others a Deist (depends on which side of the bed I crawled out from, I suppose), I could count the number of times I had gone to any church on one hand....later I changed my mind about all of that and joined a church......one that my relatives did not particularly favor me getting involved with (add in the fact that some people take turning down their home made iced tea here in the south as a personal insult, which has never helped matters).....anyway, I can sort of see where the OP is coming from (albeit from the other side of the road, so to speak)....and my advice is this-your from the sound of it a minor, so respect your parents even when you disagree with them, when your 18 you are free to do as you wish, but until then just bear with them
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Freakgs: Yes, we don't know how it's in Poland, but you should've stated BEFOREHAND that you're especially referring to a specific situation in a specific country.
Your comment was stated in a very broad manner, as such nobody could know that it's directed towards a specific country.
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keeveek: But even what he's saying is becoming less and less true. I think Poland needs more families like ours. Every year, more and more families are curageous enough to not baptise their children. Few years from now, not attending to religion at school shouldn't be a problem too.

I wasn't attending religion since 2nd grade primary school (gimnazjum) and never had any problems because of that, the slightest.
What's the benefit for your kid to not get baptize. Proof that he will be better of by not having baptism then I shall change my opinion,
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hedwards: It's a perfectly fine analogy to make, assuming the GP is referring to the belief in Santa Clause prior to knowing the truth.
It's a perfectly fine analogy only if you have no understanding of why Christians believe one and not the other.

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hedwards: Also, Atheists and Agnostics and those that quit their religion usually know more about religion in general than folks that stick with what they were born into.
I've talked with a number or people who have left their religion and when I questioned them, it was pretty clear to me that most of them knew very little about it. They often went from being fundie believers to being fundie atheists. Of course there are people who leave their religion who are quite knowledgeable about it, but from my experience, they are few and far in between.

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hedwards: Perhaps, if the Church would engage in things worthy of praise it might make the news. Considering that Catholic charities pulled out of Massachusetts when they were forced to provide services across the board, including to homosexuals, it's rich to claim that it's just a media perception. The Church does some good and in exchange the Church expects to have it's way whenever it wants.
Indeed the church does many things that are worthy of praise, and you haven't heard of most of them precisely because they don't usually make the news. What's rich is that this is a prime example of completely ignoring all the good that Catholic charities have done in Massachusetts for the last 100 years and are focusing on the one negative thing that has made the news, which isn't even that bad. While I don't think it was a good decision on their part, I fully respect that it is entirely their decision to make. It seems reasonable to me that people should be able to have some say about who they volunteer services to, so I'm dumbfounded as to how you can equate that with expecting their way whenever they want.

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hedwards: What's more, there's basically no medical reason to do that proactively when proper hygiene can keep the risk of infection to manageable levels.
If it's removing a risk of infection, then isn't there a medical reason to do that?

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hedwards: I think it's safe to assume that we agree on how heretical that is.
Indeed.

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Red_Avatar: Christmas is being replaced by Winter Festivities - which is fine in a way because the religious theme had nothing to do with a tree and ornaments in the first place.
There were Winter Festivities long before Christians commandeered it with the celebration of Christmas. The same goes with Easter. Neither of which I celebrate as a Christian.
Post edited February 10, 2013 by Soyeong