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supplementscene: This post strikes me as strange.
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GameRager: Much about this game strikes me as strange, as it's my first game and I am only somewhat competent in regular mafia games as I played them so much.....but i'm learning as I go to fill in the blanks when needed.

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supplementscene: Ahhh so as long as a fascist draws 2 Liberal cards we're sweet? Good to know. Unfortunately if a fascist draws only 1 card a Liberal is likely to end up in conflict. Given the risk Lift might be fascist why would you want that? It would mean Joe and Lift would be frozen.
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GameRager: It is highly unlikely for a president at this point(afaik) to draw 3F cards, so they'd be more likely to get 2 F cards.....if they(Lift) passed both to Joe then it'd likely be a good idea to suspect Lift.
No, you simply don't elect Lift if you're Liberal. Because:

1. If there's a conflict you don't know if A) Joe and ZFR are fascist or B) Lift is fascist. Fascists will play liberal policy with fascists. If Joe and ZFR are Liberal they are pretty much frozen alongside Lift. If ZFR and Joe are fascist they will be pretty much forced to play fascist policy in their next hand. We can then freeze them.

2. Lift if Liberal could draw 3 fascist policies if he's Liberal. Because either Joe/Rager/RWarehall could be a fascist drawing 2 Liberal Policies and 1 Fascist Policy and underclaiming. Limiting the players touching the deck means you know when the deck finishes if there's likely to have been drops and who could have done them. Introducing a new player means you completely lose any analysis of this - you have no info.
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supplementscene: No, you simply don't elect Lift if you're Liberal.
Only the sith deal in absolutes......that said, it's much easier for me and more fun to play as I have been so i'll likely stick to it unless someone can make a good case for me to do otherwise.

(And in layman's terms that won't make me have to break open the rule book)
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ZFR: There is of course also the option that he planned to pass a fascist policy but got LLF. In that case however why help confirm me by giving me LF: he would have passed me LL so I don't get confirmed and he could gain some lib points along the way.

Scene, despite all his actions, seems as our normal liberal scene. It surprises me that you don't see him as such, you played a lot with him, you should know his style. The fact that you continuosly pick on him makes me think you mroe likely to be scum.
You raise some good points and I don't know why the Fascists act like they do. However, I disagree on these two points.

-passing LL when you have the chance to test someone in a situation, where there is leeway for testing, isn't a liberal action. So if he drew LLF and passed LL, that would put him under scrutiny. I guess what I would have done in his position is, pass along FF if I drew FFL (claiming FFF and burying the one L), but if I drew LLF, I'd have passed on LF too. LL looks too suspicious, unless one plans to claim having drawn LLL.

-Scene doesn't feel like his normal liberal self. Yes, he was always all over the place and always very stubborn and often prejudiced. But this time there seems to be method to his madness, to say it with the words of the bard. However, it is possible that this more methodic impression is due to his increased experience. So maybe what I am reading as (scummy) intent is just a change in his style compared to past games. I haven't played with him in a long time. So maybe I am just as much prejudiced as he is. He reads me as scummy because I didn't like his meta-idea and makes everything else fit that prejudice. Maybe I'm making the same error. But if he isn't scum, who is then? Micro remains. You do, as H. RFG due to trent's past behaviour, but that's a weak point. Or H among GR and RW. But really, Scene as Fascist in a bad place fits best, I think.

But all in all: if you think I'm a Fascist skip me. There isn't much harm done by that, if you really are L.

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supplementscene: Now you could well be Liberal but playing style is very different to normal. It makes me think the Fascists might have got bad seats and you're panicking.
Funny. That's exactly my theory about you. But if you are actually Liberal, in spite of appearances, ask yourself two things: was I ever prone to panicking? And wouldn't I play much more 'Liberal' and careful as Fascist? I was routinely rated as the most liberal player when I was Fascist in the past, remember?

Also: my style is different from what? In at least half of the games we played together I was Fascist. In a significant portion of them I was Hitler. Is my style different from those games? Or from the minority of games where I was Liberal? I think, you just WANT to read me as Fascist and therefore you fall back to 'he is different. And different is bad!'

Yes, I am aware that I do the same with you, ironically. Because I have the impression that you have a plan and that fits, in my experience, an informed (i.e. Fascist) Scene better than an uninformed (i.e. Liberal) Scene.


By the way, whose vote is still missing?
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Lifthrasil: By the way, whose vote is still missing?
Microfish and JoeSapphire.
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ZFR: There is of course also the option that he planned to pass a fascist policy but got LLF. In that case however why help confirm me by giving me LF: he would have passed me LL so I don't get confirmed and he could gain some lib points along the way.

Scene, despite all his actions, seems as our normal liberal scene. It surprises me that you don't see him as such, you played a lot with him, you should know his style. The fact that you continuosly pick on him makes me think you mroe likely to be scum.
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Lifthrasil: You raise some good points and I don't know why the Fascists act like they do. However, I disagree on these two points.

-passing LL when you have the chance to test someone in a situation, where there is leeway for testing, isn't a liberal action. So if he drew LLF and passed LL, that would put him under scrutiny. I guess what I would have done in his position is, pass along FF if I drew FFL (claiming FFF and burying the one L), but if I drew LLF, I'd have passed on LF too. LL looks too suspicious, unless one plans to claim having drawn LLL.

-Scene doesn't feel like his normal liberal self. Yes, he was always all over the place and always very stubborn and often prejudiced. But this time there seems to be method to his madness, to say it with the words of the bard. However, it is possible that this more methodic impression is due to his increased experience. So maybe what I am reading as (scummy) intent is just a change in his style compared to past games. I haven't played with him in a long time. So maybe I am just as much prejudiced as he is. He reads me as scummy because I didn't like his meta-idea and makes everything else fit that prejudice. Maybe I'm making the same error. But if he isn't scum, who is then? Micro remains. You do, as H. RFG due to trent's past behaviour, but that's a weak point. Or H among GR and RW. But really, Scene as Fascist in a bad place fits best, I think.

But all in all: if you think I'm a Fascist skip me. There isn't much harm done by that, if you really are L.

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supplementscene: Now you could well be Liberal but playing style is very different to normal. It makes me think the Fascists might have got bad seats and you're panicking.
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Lifthrasil: Funny. That's exactly my theory about you. But if you are actually Liberal, in spite of appearances, ask yourself two things: was I ever prone to panicking? And wouldn't I play much more 'Liberal' and careful as Fascist? I was routinely rated as the most liberal player when I was Fascist in the past, remember?

Also: my style is different from what? In at least half of the games we played together I was Fascist. In a significant portion of them I was Hitler. Is my style different from those games? Or from the minority of games where I was Liberal? I think, you just WANT to read me as Fascist and therefore you fall back to 'he is different. And different is bad!'

Yes, I am aware that I do the same with you, ironically. Because I have the impression that you have a plan and that fits, in my experience, an informed (i.e. Fascist) Scene better than an uninformed (i.e. Liberal) Scene.

By the way, whose vote is still missing?
It's a fallacy that giving a choice on LLF is a good idea. If a regular fascist ditches you've just wasted 2 liberal policies out of the deck. It gives you info but only the same info you'd have if you played another hand with the player and then you'd have another liberal policy on the board. It doesn't really give the rest of the board any more info about who the fascist in the conflict is. Sure it could be the person claiming to have given a choice but a fascist can

The times I remember your shading being most aggressive was the first Mafia game I played with you where you were Mafia and got ZFR lynched.

BTW if you're Liberal you shouldn't want to play at this stage. If Joe/ZFR are 2 fascists, one of them can conflict you to allow the other to play. It's better information to allow them to play together as a pair. You want to know who has or hasn't dropped. You can't get that information by letting everyone play. If the next 2 governments of Joe/ZFR/Rager/Warehall don't play at least 1 Liberal policy you can freeze 2 fascists and the game is nearly solved.
Micro and Joe, if you haven't voted yet due to indecision on some point, would you please share what it is? I don't really know how to respond to the back and forth among ZFR/scene/Lift, and it would give me something to discuss.
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RedFireGaming: Micro and Joe, if you haven't voted yet due to indecision on some point, would you please share what it is? I don't really know how to respond to the back and forth among ZFR/scene/Lift, and it would give me something to discuss.
I imagine it's more due to inactivity. From what I remember Joe didn't have regular internet access in the past and this may still be an issue.
And micro is more absent than present too. Still it would be nice to have either those votes or some input from them. I like the more leisurely pace of the games here, compared to secrethitler.io and discord, but this game is too slow even for my taste.
sorry for the absence :( my weekend was super busy.

I might be merely taken in, but I am siding with Scene over Lift in this case. For now.

@mod I vote Nein to this gov
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Microfish_1: @mod I vote Nein to this gov
You have to PM your vote. Please do so if you haven't.
I'm wondering if Joe needs a sub? This is why my idea for Lift and Micro to nominate picks at the same time made sense. The game drags when we're ages for results on govs that shouldnt pass
Bookwyrm held an agenda that Beatrice produced, reading it. "Huh. I think we're not going to be testing Liftin' now."

"You what? But I haven't even-"

"Yeah, we heard that song and tune before. How's your band?"

Lift attempted to say something, before he realized he had nothing to say.

This government has been rejected!

1. GameRager..................ja!
2. JoeSapphire.................nein
3. RWarehall.....................nein
4. Lifthrasil........................ja!
5. Microfish.......................nein
6. ZFR................................nein
7. RedFireGaming...........nein
8. supplementscene........nein

The government tracker has moved by one step. Two more failed governments before a topdeck!

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Microfish_1: ...
Time for Microfish to nominate a Chancellor!
sorry guys, my weekend and work have both been very busy

I've voted now.

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supplementscene: Don't trust him Joe, Lift wants to conflict you
this alarms me somewhat, but I can't see much benefit to having a lifthrasil president.


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ZFR: I stand by my conclusions: one of those theories *has* to be true: either Lift is scum, or RW+GR are F-H pair. Or both.
If ZFR's Fascist, which seems unlikely, then skipping to ZFR's presidency will likely cause conflict between Joe/ZFR (but would he do that to me, after all we've been through together?)
But even then we've still got a strong RW/Gamerager team to fall back on, and I don't think Fascist-ZFR would point out the possibility of F-H pairing here if it actually were.

Hum.
but there's still the possibility of the L-H pairing RW and Gamerager I spose. Hm.

Well I haven't felt the need to start panicking and kicking off yet so I'll go with the flow-that-seems-so-generous for now.
OK. That was to be expected.

@GR: I know my alignment, so of course I voted for me. But why did you vote yes?

@micro: please nominate your Chancellor soon. This time I actually agree with Scene that skipping you is in our best interest, no matter whom you nominate. You've been here so rarely that there is no reading you at all. So skipping to ZFR+Joe is our best bet.
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Lifthrasil: @GR: I know my alignment, so of course I voted for me. But why did you vote yes?
In part because I wanted for Joe to be tested again(to see which policy he'd pick from the cards you sent him), and also in part because I am new at this and figured i'd stick with my yes vote streak.
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Also to all: I am a bit under the weather so my posting might be sporadic/rare for the next 20-24 hours or so. I will try to keep up as best I can, though.

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