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I really like the tension of roguelikes - few feelings beat the relief when you narrowly escape from a near-death encounter and promise yourself never to enter such a dangerous place again before you're properly leveled and equipped. What I don't like is being forced into exploring those dangerous places to find more food, or that you start running into Liches in the Forest of Fluffy Woodland Creatures as soon as you hit level 15.

In other words, I'm not really into NetHack or Crawl. Andband is my kind of roguelike. In Angband, you can escape from any danger by reading a Scroll of Teleport Level, as long as...

1. ...you aren't gradually losing hp from being poisoned, bleeding or starving
2. ...you aren't blind, confused, paralysed or unconcious and thus unable to read
3. ...you aren't killed in one turn, most likely by a monster breathing poison or elemental attacks
4. ...you aren't so much slower than the monsters that they get to act twice before your go

Angband is an unforgiving world for those venturing deep into the dungeon without enough hitpoints, speed and resistence ot blindness, confusion, poison, fire, lightning, cold, acid, etc and of course a Scroll of Teleport Level. But if you do take the necessary precautions you are rewarded with from annoying deaths. That doesn't mean the game gets boring once you have that safety net, though, as Angband is good at tempting you to tempt your fate. The levels are not only randomly generated each time you start a new game - once you leave a dungeon floor it is lost and replaced by another the next time. So if you find a Great Vault - a big room filled with overleveled loot and monsters - you can't leave it for now and come back after gaining a couple of levels. As you don't find Great Vaults very often, you WILL consider taking stupid risks when you do! Also, grinding to fill every resistance hole before diving deeo is boring! Using detection magic to avoid lethal threats works just as well most of the time. Except for when it doesn't.

But even if grinding can be boring, it really feels good to have the option. When you die because you couldn't be bothered to grind it feels fair. You still get mad, but you get mad at yourself and not the game. The typical playing pattern of a game where you can grind:

1. Exploring the early game, taking lots of risks as you don't have much to lose yet
2. Your first near-death experience, you realise you've gotten rather far and that you should be more careful from now on
3. After taking it slow for a while, wiping the floor with the early monsters you start longing for adventure
4. You have to go pretty far before you start running into monsters that actually hurt you, suddenly you run into a unique or something and lose 50% of your hp in one attack. You use up a lot of expendible resources, your speed potion, a bunch of your best healing potions, etc,etc. But you survive. You mourn the loss of pretty much all your good potion finds this far in the game, but at least you're alive. After all, this is what a good personal apotheque of potions is made for!
5. You take it slow once again, not only gaining levels but also re-building your collection of potions
6. You get bored and take risks. You get scared and once again take it slow for a while.
7. After many cycles of getting bored and getting scared to death you reach the door to the end boss. You can't lose after making it this far. So you grind and you grind, hoping to find a couple of unique itens that you want to aquire before taking on the boss. But you never find them. You grind some more and get bored to tears. But you're smart enough to know that losing to the end boss now will make you feel awful. So you play another game.

Well, that's pretty much what happened in my last Angband game. But are there any other grindy roguelikes? Preferrably not as lengthy as Angband. Something like Quickband (which does have some auto-adjusted monster levels) is in my opinion pretty good. You still benefit from grinding, but as the end boss is Saruman and not Morgoth, you don't have fill every single resistence hole before the final battle. Quickband also does away with the infamous "stat gain" segment of every playthough, where you have to grind for potions raising your stats. In other words, Quickband still has you grinding, but you grind for good items rather than specific items.
Dungeons of Dredmor?

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Not on PC, but Rune Factory Frontier.

I was pleasantly surprised by that one. I had to make many a 'teleport' escape, as I was frequently out of my depth. And had to hop back to my 'cozy' forge to make some new weaponry.
Would Unepic fit ?
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Licurg: Would Unepic fit ?
it is not a rogue-like?

more like Castlevania
Post edited April 22, 2013 by amok
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Sturmwind: Not on PC, but Rune Factory Frontier.

I was pleasantly surprised by that one. I had to make many a 'teleport' escape, as I was frequently out of my depth. And had to hop back to my 'cozy' forge to make some new weaponry.
Oh yeah, RFF and its follow-on RF Tides of Destiny are really good for that. Spend one in-game day farming crops, spend one mining and fishing, spend one cooking/forging/potion making, talk to all the NPCs and sell stuff, then on in-game day four go use all your new stuff to clear out one floor and open the speed-elevator to the next floor....
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Licurg: Would Unepic fit ?
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amok: it is not a rogue-like?

more like Castlevania
It's... Rogue-like-ish, and that's enough:P
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Sturmwind: Not on PC, but Rune Factory Frontier.

I was pleasantly surprised by that one. I had to make many a 'teleport' escape, as I was frequently out of my depth. And had to hop back to my 'cozy' forge to make some new weaponry.
Typical! I hardly ever found out about games I wanted to by for the Wii when I had one (my girlfriend bought it but she seldom wanted any game for it either). That game sounds really like something I would enjoy, but we lost it to a burgler. :(
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amok: Dungeons of Dredmor?

(/thread)
Tell me about Dungeons of Dredmor! Can you play it at your own pace, like Angband? Is food readily avalible? Will more dangerous monsters spawn once you reach a certain levels? Or will existing monsters get tougher, so that you end up fighting against lvl 50 Goblins and such?

What sets DoD apart from other roguelikes? Is it puzzle-heavy, like NetHack? Is it combat-heavy, like Angband and its variants? Does it have an overworld to explore and varied levels, like ToME and ADOM? Does it have music and graphics? Is micromanagement a big part of the game?
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Sturmwind: Not on PC, but Rune Factory Frontier.

I was pleasantly surprised by that one. I had to make many a 'teleport' escape, as I was frequently out of my depth. And had to hop back to my 'cozy' forge to make some new weaponry.
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hansappel: Typical! I hardly ever found out about games I wanted to by for the Wii when I had one (my girlfriend bought it but she seldom wanted any game for it either). That game sounds really like something I would enjoy, but we lost it to a burgler. :(
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amok: Dungeons of Dredmor?

(/thread)
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hansappel: Tell me about Dungeons of Dredmor! Can you play it at your own pace, like Angband? Is food readily avalible? Will more dangerous monsters spawn once you reach a certain levels? Or will existing monsters get tougher, so that you end up fighting against lvl 50 Goblins and such?

What sets DoD apart from other roguelikes? Is it puzzle-heavy, like NetHack? Is it combat-heavy, like Angband and its variants? Does it have an overworld to explore and varied levels, like ToME and ADOM? Does it have music and graphics? Is micromanagement a big part of the game?
DoD is more of a dungeon crawler and do not have an overworld to explore. The mobs get harder as you go deeper down. It is very combat heavy. It has very good music and graphics.

To start, take a look at TotalBiscits WTF on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyTfUnnxZV4
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amok: DoD is more of a dungeon crawler and do not have an overworld to explore. The mobs get harder as you go deeper down. It is very combat heavy. It has very good music and graphics.

To start, take a look at TotalBiscits WTF on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyTfUnnxZV4
How do you do if you want to grind? Can you just enter a level, kill things, leave and enter again to re-fill the level or do you have to spend a number of turns waiting for the monsters to respawn? And if the food that fills your health also fills a hunge bar, will grinding yield more food or money you can by ood for than it takes?

In any case, I've seen a lot of Cynical Brit's "WTF is..." videos, and I don't think I've seen him being that impressed before! It seems to combine the geeky humour of NetHack with the combat tactics of Crawl. Let's just hope it has the grindfriendly gameplay of Angband too!

I know a lot of people see grinding possibilities as bad design and I agree in cases where the player is forced to play levels over and over again just to get strong enough for the next level. The option to grind in case don't feel ready for the next level is nice to have, though. I wouldn't say it takes away the mercilessness of a roguelike. Quite the contrary, actually! Being able to blame your demise on the random number generator not giving you strong enough gear to face Trolls on dungeon level 12 is rather mercifull if you ask me. But as I said in my first post, if you could have saved your dead character by grinding, you have only yourself to blame. Mandatory deep dungeon descent (e.g. in search for food) is in my opinion as bad as mandatory grinding - let the players choose themselves and let turn count be listed on the high score table (that way, those wanting to brag about how they won the game without grinding get thair grand achievment recognised).
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amok: it is not a rogue-like?

more like Castlevania
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Licurg: It's... Rogue-like-ish, and that's enough:P
It's no more "Rogue-like-ish" than Skyrim.

I'd recommend Stone Soup and Tales of Maj'Eyal.

Edit: Oh, looks like you're already familiar with them both. I don't remember Stone Soup (Crawl) being all that bad about food.
Post edited April 22, 2013 by kalirion
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amok: DoD is more of a dungeon crawler and do not have an overworld to explore. The mobs get harder as you go deeper down. It is very combat heavy. It has very good music and graphics.

To start, take a look at TotalBiscits WTF on it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pyTfUnnxZV4
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hansappel: How do you do if you want to grind? Can you just enter a level, kill things, leave and enter again to re-fill the level or do you have to spend a number of turns waiting for the monsters to respawn? And if the food that fills your health also fills a hunge bar, will grinding yield more food or money you can by ood for than it takes?

In any case, I've seen a lot of Cynical Brit's "WTF is..." videos, and I don't think I've seen him being that impressed before! It seems to combine the geeky humour of NetHack with the combat tactics of Crawl. Let's just hope it has the grindfriendly gameplay of Angband too!

I know a lot of people see grinding possibilities as bad design and I agree in cases where the player is forced to play levels over and over again just to get strong enough for the next level. The option to grind in case don't feel ready for the next level is nice to have, though. I wouldn't say it takes away the mercilessness of a roguelike. Quite the contrary, actually! Being able to blame your demise on the random number generator not giving you strong enough gear to face Trolls on dungeon level 12 is rather mercifull if you ask me. But as I said in my first post, if you could have saved your dead character by grinding, you have only yourself to blame. Mandatory deep dungeon descent (e.g. in search for food) is in my opinion as bad as mandatory grinding - let the players choose themselves and let turn count be listed on the high score table (that way, those wanting to brag about how they won the game without grinding get thair grand achievment recognised).
Unfortunately, it is not very grinding friendly. You clear a floor, and move on the the next. So it is more a steady progression until you die, more than grinding. However, you can stay on a floor and make sure you have killed all mobs and got all loot before moving on to the next.

I know what you mean about grinding, I tend to do it myself when I play RPG's of all types when it is possible. It is also good for some games where you can just get into a rhythm grinding one mob after another. (The best grinding game is WoW, not very roguelike, though)
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Licurg: It's... Rogue-like-ish, and that's enough:P
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kalirion: It's no more "Rogue-like-ish" than Skyrim.

I'd recommend Stone Soup and Tales of Maj'Eyal.

Edit: Oh, looks like you're already familiar with them both. I don't remember Stone Soup (Crawl) being all that bad about food.
Stone Soup not being bad about food? That's the game that had me starving as a caster even with every single stat that reduces spell hunger amped as much as possible during a run. I think the only viable race for a caster was a Mummy but you had to get the right equipment and worship the right god in order to be any decent :D
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Sturmwind: Not on PC, but Rune Factory Frontier.
Is that anything like the DS versions? I don't think those are roguelikes.

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amok: Unfortunately, it is not very grinding friendly. You clear a floor, and move on the the next. So it is more a steady progression until you die, more than grinding. However, you can stay on a floor and make sure you have killed all mobs and got all loot before moving on to the next.
I think mobs respawn while on the floor. Somewhat slowly though.
Enemies in Dredmor -do- respawn after a while, but not in great numbers.

Let's say that if a floor has 150 monsters and you wipe them all out but keep exploring, you'll stumble upon 5-10 more as you walk around.