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htown1980: Who said the issue was that the female character was there SOLELY to be sexy?
So the issue is they are sexy at all or what?

There is nothing wrong with how Morrigan looks, nothing. Soul Calibour 4 example was good. Warrior Within as well.

And somehow every picture of a woman facing back to the camera is called "butt shot" for some fucked up reason. If she stands facing up to the camera it's probably a boob shot, right?

So the solution is, as always, a burkha.
Post edited December 04, 2013 by keeveek
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F4LL0UT: Of course the depiction of women in those games is heavily sexualized when their whole society has a completely different stance when it comes to gender issues, one that our beloved activists aren't aware of and certainly not qualified to talk about - and one that they certainly will never be able to change.
I don't follow what you are saying.

When you say their whole society has a completely different stance on gender issues, do you really mean their whole society?

Also, are you saying that there is no way their society will ever change their stance on gender issues or are you saying that activists will never be able to convince Asians to change it?

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keeveek: So the issue is they are sexy at all or what?
Well, I didn't say that, others may have (although I doubt it). if you like you can read the previous page for hints.
Post edited December 04, 2013 by htown1980
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F4LL0UT: Totally agree with you. Frankly, I think that further undermines the basis of much of the criticism of Sarkeesian and the like. They largely use Japanese games to provide examples of negative presentation of women in games
I think it would be rather hilarious to see them start actively criticizing Japanese game portrayal of females.

Social justice versus Japan, good luck with that, hehe
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htown1980: Who said the issue was that the female character was there SOLELY to be sexy?
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keeveek: So the issue is they are sexy at all or what?

There is nothing wrong with how Morrigan looks, nothing. Soul Calibour 4 example was good. Warrior Within as well.

And somehow every picture of a woman facing back to the camera is called "butt shot" for some fucked up reason. If she stands facing up to the camera it's probably a boob shot, right?

So the solution is, as always, a burkha.
With a "(American) football helmet style" visor because eyes can be sexy to
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htown1980: When you say their whole society has a completely different stance on gender issues, do you really mean their whole society?
Yes, but of course by that I don't mean every single individual living in Japan, I mean the average person's stance. Frankly, I don't know how things really are in Japan but taking into account all the social and cultural differences I am aware of I don't see the slightest chance that the gender role thing is or will be the same it is in the west.

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htown1980: Also, are you saying that there is no way their society will ever change their stance on gender issues or are you saying that activists will never be able to convince Asians to change it?
I'm fairly certain that it is constantly changing but not thanks to numb-nuts like Sarkeesian & Co. - nor other western feminists for that matter.
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Crosmando: Social justice versus Japan, good luck with that, hehe
Yeah, I love the absurdity of that thought.
Post edited December 04, 2013 by F4LL0UT
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htown1980: When you say their whole society has a completely different stance on gender issues, do you really mean their whole society?
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F4LL0UT: Yes, but of course by that I don't mean every single individual living in Japan, I mean the average person's stance. Frankly, I don't know how things really are in Japan but taking into account all the social and cultural differences I am aware of I don't see the slightest chance that the gender role thing is or will be the same it is in the west.

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htown1980: Also, are you saying that there is no way their society will ever change their stance on gender issues or are you saying that activists will never be able to convince Asians to change it?
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F4LL0UT: I'm fairly certain that it is constantly changing but not thanks to numb-nuts like Sarkeesian & Co. - nor other western feminists for that matter.
Ugh...

So when you say "their whole society has a completely different stance when it comes to gender issues" you mean "the average person's stance is completely different but I don't know how things really are in Japan"

And when you say "one that our beloved activists will never be able to change" you mean "you believe its constantly changing but not because of people who produce their works in English and who don't target their articles to Japanese people."

Insightful stuff...

I have only been to Japan twice, they are definitely behind Western countries in terms of feminism, but in my experience, Japanese video games, manga, anime, etc, is no indication of what the actual attitudes of the average person are like. Not even close.
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htown1980: So when you say "their whole society has a completely different stance when it comes to gender issues" you mean "the average person's stance is completely different but I don't know how things really are in Japan"
Well, I know too little to speak confidently of how the situation is there and I'm no Japanophile but I know enough (and not just through mangas, video games and Japanese cinema but also through insightful talks with friends who have a perfect understanding of the Japanese society and culture) to be certain that the whole society is different and that there's no chance that the gender roles are the same as in the west. Heck, social and cultural differences are already remarkable when comparing Eastern Europe to Western Europe (and even within Eastern Europe I'm aware of some extreme differences), it's safe to assume that a society considered as exotic as Japan is even more different and this is bound to include gender roles.

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htown1980: And when you say "one that our beloved activists will never be able to change" you mean "you believe its constantly changing but not because of people who produce their works in English and who don't target their articles to Japanese people."
Okay, let's fix this: I *know* that there's been remarkable progress in gender roles over the last decades in Japan caused mainly by internal social change, not western cultural and social influence. Life expectancies have gone up and the birth rate has dropped resulting in a large emergence of career-oriented women.

And obviously Sarkeesian and RPS aren't targeting Japan with their activism (at least for now) but they (well, at least Sarkeesian) use Japanese products to point out "misogyny" in video games as if they were representative of the whole industry. Plus, what's the point of using examples from a region that they aren't even targeting? That's really the absurdity I wanted to point out.

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htown1980: Japanese video games, manga, anime, etc, is no indication of what the actual attitudes of the average person are like. Not even close.
Of course the content of many of their cultural products is no direct indication of the social situation there, however, it does somewhat reflect their society's mentality. Plus the fact that many of their works which could never achieve mainstream success in the west are more popular than any Hollywood blockbuster there says a lot about social and cultural differences, doesn't it.
Post edited December 04, 2013 by F4LL0UT
Let's get this straight here. No one, NO ONE should feel ashamed at looking at a beautiful person and thinking, or saying, that said person is beautiful or even "hot". It's in our biology to procreate. What feminism is asking is to go against our own biology, our own thought processes and think THEIR way. It's not going to happen. I don't think it is a bad thing that some women are viewed as sexual objects, just as I don't think it's a bad thing that some men are viewed as sexual objects.

If you purposely degrade another human being into only being a sex object, THEN you have a problem.

Degrading another person and thinking a person is pretty or "hot" or any other adjective are two totally different issues. You can still thinking something is "hot" or beautiful and yet still hold them in high regard. You can still be "hot" and smart. You can also be ugly and be stupid. Feminism is attempting to dovetail the two issues together, which is not correct. Radical Feminism is attempting to cast all males as rapists and pigs, which is not correct. I have a right as a human being to think you are beautiful. I have a right to say as such. I do not have the right to degrade you as I say it.

Unfortunately, degrading someone is a matter of perception. I've called random girls beautiful and they've had no problem with it. I've called other girls beautiful and been called a pig. It depends on context and what the other person finds offensive. And what someone finds offensive, I may find completely acceptable.

It all comes down to opinions, perceptions and values, which are all different, from person to person. Attempting to tar anyone with the same brush as someone else is the worst possible thing feminists can do. And yet here some people are, calling down males and saying we are all pigs. Good job, feminism! Your neutering of the male sex is coming along very well.
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itchy01ca01: just as I don't think it's a bad thing that some men are viewed as sexual objects.
Happens to me all the time and I'm LOVING it.
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itchy01ca01: just as I don't think it's a bad thing that some men are viewed as sexual objects.
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F4LL0UT: Happens to me all the time and I'm LOVING it.
Obviously upbringing, social constructs, and cultural values all play a role in what can/cannot offend us. VERY little offends me but Im also relatively blue-collar, middle-class and Caucasian. I know I have it good. I don't give a rats butt what you think, as long as you treat people with respect or you have a legitimate reason not to. Feminists seem to go off the handle at every. single. little. thing. It disgusts me.

Like the Republican party of the early Americas, and Unions, Feminism was a force for good. Now, they are a force for evil, attempting to corrupt females into being ashamed of their bodies and blaming men for that shame. It has nothing to do with empowerment, now. It's about enslavement of male minds and female bodies.
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itchy01ca01: VERY little offends me but Im also relatively blue-collar, middle-class and Caucasian. I know I have it good.
Well, wherever I am, I'm part of a minority. In Germany I'm a Pole, in Poland I'm a weird German/Polish hybrid mutant thingy so I know pretty darn well what it's like to be surrounded by people from a different social group and being treated differently than most others in my environment. I've actually suffered a surprising lot due to my heritage. However, one of the best and most important things I've done in my life was getting rid of many of my sensitivities and remembering that I'm not a representative of "my kind", if I want to be respected I need to convince others of my quality as an individual and if everyone with my heritage did that *then* others would treat us all with a little more respect. I consider it insane to declare myself a spokesperson of all people I share a heritage with (plus I'm aware that that group contains many lowlifes that I wouldn't ever wanna defend or be identified with) and I consider it insane to call every disrespectful remark about Poles "evil", something that requires some sort of retaliation or revenge. And I especially consider it insane to demand a limitation other of people's freedom of speaking their minds, be it serious comments or harmless jokes. The best thing I can do when someone makes an "offensive" remark is keeping my cool, maybe even laugh and in the best case deliver a retort that will make the other side laugh and will actually build respect towards me. Whining on every occasion and looking for offensive implications in every remark doesn't help at all.

And that's exactly what feminists like Sarkeesian and the RPSocialJustice Squad do (and yeah, this still isn't about actual discrimination, hate and physical suffering of women - it's still about stories and character designs that some people don't like). They make all the mistakes which I kept making until I was in my mid-teens. But for God's sake, I learned it, my life got better and it did not require the whole world around me to change nor did I have to shatter things that others value or turn anyone's anger at me. It required only a *little* effort by myself and now, basically by accident, there's a chance that some people who met me have a better attitude towards Poles in general. If only feminists, at least the moronic ones like Sarkeesian and RPShitstorm - not the ones who actually fight for rights in areas where women are directly oppressed and/or otherwise harmed - got that.

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itchy01ca01: Like the Republican party of the early Americas, and Unions, Feminism was a force for good. Now, they are a force for evil, attempting to corrupt females into being ashamed of their bodies and blaming men for that shame. It has nothing to do with empowerment, now. It's about enslavement of male minds and female bodies.
There lies wisdom in thy words.
Post edited December 04, 2013 by F4LL0UT