One thing I don't understand about piracy is the "need" to play the game anyway. Some advocates say "I want to play game X, but I don't want to pay for it". Thus there are a few options:
1) Buy the game and play it.
2) Wait for a year or so until it comes down in price.
3) Save up for a few months.
4) Don't play it.
Games have been around for so long these days that you can get an equivalent game from the 1998 era for a few cents 2nd-hand now. I just don't get the "must play new game now" mentality. Either save up for it, or wait for a few years, or play its predecessor.

Edit - if people are really hard-up and can't afford any game, then there's plenty of online flash games that are free.

I was more talking about personal morality than group morality. Also imo some things are universally immoral or moral, as you sort of said, and IMO alot of people in the joe schmoe kind folk group would think laying off people because you made 2% less money one year is a immoral or just batshit insane and nasty thing to do.
Or the all seeing eye-like prescence in Dreamfall's "earth" side watching everyone's day to day routines for bad behavior.
1. As again i'm poor I can't buy every game I want.
2. If I pirate it then buy it when it goes down in price isn't that almost the same thing(technically not legally) as just not playing it until buying it when it again goes down in price?
3. I have ocd and waiting for things kinda makes me go all off in the head to some degree.....yeah I know my life sucks. Even with meds I still experience my issues to some level, which sucks with many things I have to do in life depending on various facotrs like my mood or stress level at the time, anxiety level, etc.
4. Read the last three replies......ain't gonna happen.

You can get a cheap game from indie sites and from olden days but newer games cost around 50-60 bucks per copy which is way higher than 2 cents. And I get bored to tears with simple flash games eventually, ya know.

Are you talking about London?

Lol, damn they have alot of cameras........i'm guessing the crap crime solving rate with cameras around is due to smart criminals commiting crimes INSIDE away from the cameras or in other places with no cameras, though......and Wizard's Invisibility Cloaks..."Damn you Ron Weasley! Stop spraypainting them cameras and get back to yer magikal studies boy!"

I think your concept of morality is flawed (and I really wanted my post to focus mainly on the moral aspect of piracy, as it applies to each of us).

What's flawed is that your view doesn't explore why an act is wrong or not. I've offered an explanation why it's morally wrong (it hurts the artists, to some degree) and your response to what you called point 4 proved my point. That is, you think that "dumbasses" support the industry, while everyone else is free to pirate the game, because those dumbasses will keep things afloat with their purchases. Tell me you don't see what wrong with your perspective. I think it's demonstrating the type of thinking I mentioned in point 2.

Answer me this, and I'll be happy: Is piracy ever wrong ? Really, tell me specific circumstances. I'm only looking for your opinion here, not any comparison at all to others, just what you feel. I'm guess you think it's OK to pirate from rich companies, but not an impoverished developer, based on your previous answers. The flaw with that, though, is that it focuses on the consequences of the piracy, not the morality behind the act itself. For most other acts, we don't consider something OK, just because it happens to a rich person. If anything, the piracy effects a rich developer far less, but it should still 'feel' a little wrong on a personal level.

Reading your response to Irenaeus makes me feel that you have a conflict between needing to play games and how to afford them. When piracy comes into play, I think your views may be shaped by this conflict. Believe me, I've been there. Games can definitely bring out ocd tendencies (for me, it's a need to complete every game for a type of collection- and of course, there's always 'just one more' out there). I might have some advice.

At one time, I pirated a few games. Most of those games were out of print and distribution, and not really what I think of as piracy, but two of them were definitely new games that I wrongly downloaded. At the time, I had no intention of buying them, but just a few months later, I saw these once full-priced games on Sale on Steam and other places for 5 or 6 bucks, and I absolutely know I'd have picked them up if I hadn't pirated them. In the last half year, I've only bought 2 full-priced games, and they weren't even the favorite games I've played in that time.

So, I'd first advise practicing patience with games-the price will go down, way down. There are some fantastic games that won't break anyone's bank (I got all 3 Thief games for just 15 bucks and I'm loving them), so make a point of never paying above a certain amount except for special circumstances, and as long as you do this, you'll eventually play those once new games for a fraction of the price. Doing this will significantly reduce how much you spend. As a side effect, by limiting how much you're willing to pay, there's a lot more care and research put into making sure your purchases matter, but not so much that you can't afford to take a risk and try a new type of game out.

With the money issue kind of resolved, I think it would be easier to resolve the internal conflict regarding how you feel about piracy. I think your opinion might change, though I want to be clear that certain types of piracy don't really feel wrong, at least to me. In your case, I think you ought to look beyond whether or not the game pirated belongs to a rich company. That's part of it, yes, but I think it misses the issue.

1. Where as I think it's fine....again it's all based on one's POV and subjective per individual. It's only the illusion formed by people with similar moralities forming groups based on there moralities(societies, clubs, pro/anti groups, etc) that makes it look like morality is a mostly shared fromed trait when it isn't. Life and circumstances/situations just make it seem like such.

2. It's not flawed imo.......and i've explored whether priacy is wrong or not and formed my own conclusions based on that information and that of similar minded people and also by listening to the opposition. As for dumbasses, I didn't mean that all game buyers were dumbasses, but that fanboys who buy a game wther it's good or not based on rabid brand/series loyalty or those buying games for others when they've never gamed before are the dumbasses buying games to keep up the slack. I also mentioned that INTELLIGENT gamers and geeksters also buy games and help the industry as well. I did not call the latter group of buyers dumbasses however, nor was my intent to make it look like I though all buyers were dumbasses.

3. I feel that it'd be wrong to continually pirate games and NEVER buy the ones one kept and played and didn't delete after testing, as well as ripping off minor houses and indie devs. BTW, Iwhile I acknowledge and use the fact that larger companies suffer less from losses than smaller ones as a reson to pirate from them it's not my only reason, although I do use it as part of the basis for my morality on the subject and thus it isn't flawed. I also take into account my impoverished status and my near need to have certain titles when they're released, along with the facts that I delets game I don't like after tesing them and also pay for games when they go down in price so I can own a legal copy. It's abunch of things I use to base my morality on the subject, really. Oh and btw, I am VERY anti-big business, so I say fuck em over whenever and wherever possible IF they're the kind I dispise the most ie the ones with bad human rights records or histories of shitting over the cusotmers...be it through DRM or bad customer relations or what have you. Keep in mind this does not mean I advocate ripping off smaller companies, who 9 times out of 10 aren't nowhere near as shitty towards customers and their employees as big ones are and NEED the sales revenue to survive.

4.(bolded part being replied to the most here) AGAIN, what's the difference then between me pirating a title and then buying it later at reduced price(steam/etc) if I intend to keep it versus just waiting and buying it legally and never pirating it and playing only the legal copy? In both cases they still get the same amount of money and I buy a legal copy the same way....it's just one is legal and the other isn't, and in one the only difference from the other is the downloading and playing first of an illegal copy. I don't really see this as a problem.

5. Money was never my only issue, so the issue is not "solved" as there was nothing to solve in the first place. I made a moral decision and stuck with it, despite all counterpoints and antis coming my way. IMO that's more important than changing one's values to fit a societal norm and compromising one's beliefs and morals, no matter how some may view them. Also, there is no conflict. I simply gauge differing levels of piracy and decide hether my morals allow me to partake in them or avoid them and act accordingly....simple, no?

As for the game being from a rich company missing the issue(again), well look at reply#3 above as I already covered that one pretty well, I think. AGAIN, my morality isn't flawed IMO.....it's just yours is differant than mine nd as such your bias will tend to think that which does not = my own beliefs/morality MUST be flawed thus wrong and I should attempt to "correct them" of it. Not meaning to be rude but it's true.

Are you really buying every title that you first pirated? Really? If that's truly what you're doing, then, no, there's nothing wrong with that. You'll forgive me, though, if I have my doubts-aren't you impoverished? In any case, it's a pretty major exception that, in a broader discussion of piracy, doesn't concern me.

I think you're still ignoring why I think piracy, in a narrow definition, is wrong, whether or not the victim is rich. You've clearly decided what you're doing isn't wrong, but seems like a pretty inward-looking decision-it's not wrong because it's different, it's wrong in the sense that it seems selfish and disrespectful to game designers. There are plenty of parallels that have been made so far where we'd consider it wrong in those circumstances, but I think the anonymity of piracy and the relative wealth of the victims makes it feel OK to you. That, or pirating out of spite because you don't like a company. Like I've said, I think that kind of reasoning does not go to the principles of the issue that I'm concerned with.

It seems like your "need" for games is kind of serious, and probably not healthy. I mean, if you're not willing to save, wait, or simply not play all these new games, like you've already said, then something is kind of messed up. At that point, I'm not even sure morality is the proper way to reason this issue, as I don't think it's at the heart of why you pirate.

So, I think I'll just drop all my morality arguments. If getting so many new games right away is a "need", and you clearly aren't willing to follow Irenaeus's advice, then nothing I can say is going to persuade you.

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1. As again i'm poor I can't buy every game I want.
2. If I pirate it then buy it when it goes down in price isn't that almost the same thing(technically not legally) as just not playing it until buying it when it again goes down in price?
3. I have ocd and waiting for things kinda makes me go all off in the head to some degree.....yeah I know my life sucks. Even with meds I still experience my issues to some level, which sucks with many things I have to do in life depending on various facotrs like my mood or stress level at the time, anxiety level, etc.
4. Read the last three replies......ain't gonna happen.

You can get a cheap game from indie sites and from olden days but newer games cost around 50-60 bucks per copy which is way higher than 2 cents. And I get bored to tears with simple flash games eventually, ya know.
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Again, I just don't get it. Maybe I'm being stupid, but there's loads of games I'd like to play but I'm not going to, because I can't afford them. So I'll just wait a few years before buying them. Besides, I have a big backlog of $2 games to play :D I'm not disputing that the new games cost ~$50, I'm disputing why you "need" to play them. If you need to play something, play a game that's 10 years old and costs $2. If you look at what you "need" in life, it's (a) water, (b) food, and (c) warmth. Anything after that is a bonus (not to say they're not worth having though!) :)

No keep replying....I find this discussion pretty enlightening and interesting actually.

1. I am buying every titles I first pirated to try out if I liked it and kept playing it....not the ones I didn't like after pirating and immediately deleted(like after a few hours or so of play at most). I also buy bthe ones I pirate and keep when they go down to where I can afford them thus money is an easier pill to swallow as an issue then.

2. You find it disrespctful and I don't....again we have different moralities so of course our views on what's morally wrong or not will be different. It doesn't make the piracy I adhere to morally wrong universally though, no matter how many people think it's wrong short of everyone thinking it's wrong....which i'm sure isn't the case nor will it ever be the case in the future as people will always be divided on this issue......thus it isn't morally wrong in basic principle as it isn't universally thought of as such.

3. It's part of why I pirate, but not the be all end all.....I also often make a choice even when my ocd isn't called into a situation of whether to pirate a certain game or not due to outside/internal stress/etc factors, which is decided by other things besides my ocd and need to have the games I want. I also weigh the pros and cons and if I want to play a game I get it and "try it out"......and actually, one could say alot of gamers have an "addiction" to games, be it of a certain series or genre or what have you.

4. Again it's not just a need but based on my own morality....the need/ocd aspect plays but a minor part in my decision making process on occasion based on certain titles/genres I feel the "need" to own more than others (for whatever reason), whereas games I sort of want or don't know or feel much about and which I end up getting anyways are based on other factors(morality/views/etc being a major deciding factor in those cases of piracy).

In summary some issues are not universally moral one way or the other, but can seem to be based on our own moralities/views or those of the groups around us. As such, what you say for the most part isn't going to "persuade" me that my brand of piracy is morally wrong universally as it isn't. It's only generically morally wrong to many people which isn't the same as if it were somehow universally morally wrong.(Which it isn't(again), btw.).

We just have two majorly opposing viewpoints on the issue and as such our minds are going to see the other viewpoint as "wrong" and try to correct the problem that we perceive.....which is fine to a point, as differing viewpoints can often lead to debate and discussion and the broadening of one's own horizons if the one trying to "show them the light" isn't being totally overt or forceful about it(you weren't btw, I am talking in general here.).

As for Irenaeus...he made some good points, but again they're not my thing for various reasons(some small due to need/ocd, major differences in how I do things due to my own moralities, enot liking casual free games that much, etc.)
You say I should play a game years later when it costs less, and I do this already. I simply pirate it first so I can play it and then buy a cheap copy of the game after the fact....it's basically the same thing, except for being illegal and all. Oh and some find it morally wrong. As I do not I go this route instead of the route you propose and the industry still gets the same amount of money than if i'd waited and NOT pirated and still bought the game for less later on anyways. As such, if the industry still gets x amount of money from me either way and one route give me instant "gratification" and the other does not(and piracy also copying rather than stealing things is another +! factor imo when doing such things), then of course i'm going to go the route that meets all my criterion and feels morally right to me.

Also, you may "only" need water/air/food/etc....but alot of people "need" other things for various reasons......some fanboys need x game because it's one of their favorite series's new titles, or they "need" to play it for some other reason....and some also "need" spiritual guidance whereas others feel spirituality isn't necessary for life and/or that it's a farce and unnecessary for humanity to survive or live their lives. Everyone does have basic needs, as you imply, but i'm not talking about basic needs here......but personal needs and other such needs.

Lastly, why do you feel the need to convince me(subconsciously on your part or not) to "convert" to playing games when they become cheap and not pirating them first even though they both produce the same end result? Just curious here and you haven't answered this as of yet.

I'm not trying to "convert" you, I just genuinely don't get it :)

Some reasons why I wait a few years, rather than pirate the originals (other than that (a) that's illegal, and (b) I wouldn't know where to go to get them anyway):
1) Game Developers keep track of how many downloads via Torrent are made of their games. If lots of people pirate the game with the intention of buying it later, the company has no way of distinguishing these from people who pirate it and don't buy it later. They just have more stats to encourage their DRM department.
2) If the game is a big release, then it is more likely to be patched to be a better end product.
3) If the game is moddable, then more mods are likely to have been made.
4) My PC hardware is more likely to play 3yr-old games than the latest ones :)
5) It's more likely that add-on packs will be included in a "Gold" edition, so I have everything in one place for that game.

I'm not sure I buy the whole OCD angle here. If you really want a physical item (such as a new cordless drill, for example), does your OCD make you go out and steal it if you don't have the cash for it?

I see nothing here but rationalization. It's really not the same thing at all. At first release, when the game costs ~50 bucks is when the game companies get the most revenue. People that purchase at release are buying the right to play it at that time, and are thus paying a premium for it. Later down the road, the right to play it costs less, which is where you're saying you buy. So by pirating at release (or early in the game's life cycle), you're playing without permission to do so at that time. And you're cheating the game companies out of the revenue they would receive to do so. You can rationalize it all you want, but the net effect is not the same.

You're confusing 'needs' with wants. A want may feel like a need to the individual, but it's still only a want. No one is going to die if they don't get to play their favorite game genre.

I doubt he's trying to convince you to convert. I imagine he, like myself, realizes it's a futile endeavor. I believe he's just trying to point out that your arguments are little more than rationalizations.

Indeed :) You could argue that kleptomaniacs have a "need" to pirate games, but society still doesn't let them steal stuff in shops. "Want"ing stuff can definitely be a good thing (it drives economies, moves technology forward, keeps the human race going etc), but it isn't "need"ing them. People in the 12th century lives perfectly happily without Call of Duty 27...

[btw, Coelocanth, I thought my username was old, but yours is prehistoric! Haahaa :)]

1. Again, OCD/need plays more/most often into deciding whether or not to pirate MUST HAVE titles of certain series/genres/etc. It's more an adding supportive factor when pirating and again not the end all be all deciding or influencing factor.

2. Rationalization and one's decisons go hand in hand, IMO, for better or for worse....but one's moralities still play a huge part in those decisions. As for the net effect not being the same, read it again. In the example of me downloading a game when it first comes out and then paying for it later on (for say....15 dollars...in a sale.) they get the amount of money from me and I now legally own the game I wanted and played. In the second example I don't pirate but wait and AGAIN buy the game(again for 15 dollars). They get the same amount of money in both cases and aren't losing any physical product in the first example, so IMO they're almost the same thing...barring the legality of the first example and how some might view it as being immoral.

3. Yeah some might not die if they don't get a certain thing(like alcohol/tobacco/etc), but they still suffer the mental and sometimes physical effects opf withdrawl when they don't get what they depend on.....thus in some ways it is a need, as in needed to prevent such withdrawl effects and to those experiencing whatever need they do for whatever reasons it is a need, if albeit an imagined one. It still has it's effects on those people though, both when they do what they feel they must and when they are forced not to for whatever reason s. Also, even legitimate game buyers have
needs" if they absolutely MUST HAVE Xgame or y genre NOW and go to buy it as soon as possible. It's not just me or pirates like me who are like this btw.

4. And what are your "arguments" but "rationalizations" as to why i'm wrong in doing what I do or why I don't need to do what I do(for whatever reasons you may come up with)? If i'm rationalizing(as you say), then you are too.




1. I don't care if they track the downloads.....IMO(as I said before) DRM boycotts or less torrented downloads aren't going to and aren't currently solving anything. Companies will always move to protect their investments regardless of if their IPs are being pirated or not. That's just how it is.
2. Good one, and I often don't pirate on day one but a month down the line hence this doesn't apply to me.
3. Again, see number 2.
4. Mine is better so this doesn't affect me either.
5. I can always pirate those too, or when I legally buy a cheaper legal version of the game I pirated awhile back the gold edition might be the one on sale thus I kill two birds with one stone anyways.

Again, I could care less whether it's illegal or not, as I do often some things considered mildly illegal and it doesn't bother me...it's how I feel morally about such acts that's important to me imo.

It seems like you've made your mind up, so there's no point me arguing with you. But I do still think you're finding rationalisation for your wants, rather than having some self-discipline. Either way, I'm done here.

I have self discipline, but c'mon....again....everyone rationalizes everything to some extent for good or ill.

I don't do everything I think is morally ok as the risk is too great, so I do excercise self control when I feel it's necessary to keep me out of jail or out of trouble......many others do the same every day on various topics and concerning laws they don't like. (Drugs laws, piracy laws, etc)