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crazy_dave: Well I think part of the defensiveness comes from the fact that no other media gets criminal sanctions for minors getting their hands on...
Well their argument is that the interactivity matters, something comic books, movies, music and whatever else never had. A simulation is different from a presentation. Is this a real concern? So far studies say no, but more studies is fine by me. I like to discover facts, as Vice President Biden said.


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crazy_dave: I think we do need to improve parental controls and increase parent's awareness of those controls as cable tried to do several years ago, but I don't think we should be at the point (yet) that we talk of criminalizing the sales of improper video games unless it is eventually shown that it does truly harm their development.
I'm not for criminalizing unless a true link is shown either. In the short-term I would be for even greater self-governance, including fines for improper advertising and perhaps multiple versions of games, with blood and without and similar things. Of course none of that helps the core issue which is parental ambivalence.

And parental ambivalence is why the government needs to step in if a true effect is discovered.
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crazy_dave: Well I think part of the defensiveness comes from the fact that no other media gets criminal sanctions for minors getting their hands on...
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StingingVelvet: Well their argument is that the interactivity matters, something comic books, movies, music and whatever else never had. A simulation is different from a presentation. Is this a real concern? So far studies say no, but more studies is fine by me. I like to discover facts, as Vice President Biden said.

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crazy_dave: I think we do need to improve parental controls and increase parent's awareness of those controls as cable tried to do several years ago, but I don't think we should be at the point (yet) that we talk of criminalizing the sales of improper video games unless it is eventually shown that it does truly harm their development.
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StingingVelvet: I'm not for criminalizing unless a true link is shown either. In the short-term I would be for even greater self-governance, including fines for improper advertising and perhaps multiple versions of games, with blood and without and similar things. Of course none of that helps the core issue which is parental ambivalence.

And parental ambivalence is why the government needs to step in if a true effect is discovered.
I guess I agree with much/all of that. :)
I can see where he is coming from to a degree, after all all the gamers raging over this debate is not really helping our stance on violent video games. With gamers raging over this it just adds more dirt to the opposing side of the violent video game debate. The problem is that he pretty much told us to shut up instead of actually delivering what should have been said which does not help his case at all.
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StingingVelvet: Well their argument is that the interactivity matters, something comic books, movies, music and whatever else never had. A simulation is different from a presentation. Is this a real concern? So far studies say no, but more studies is fine by me. I like to discover facts, as Vice President Biden said.
At what point though, can we finally say that we've studied something "enough"? There's only so much to be gleaned, but IMO, the people who have a bone to pick with the medium won't rest unless and until they finally get the answer they want. Namely that there is a direct & causative link between video games and real life actions. Until they finally get that answer, it'll always, again IMO, be that there needs to be more studies performed.

Now, there could be an opportunity for further studies when we come out with new ways of presenting the medium, such as full VR rigs or holodeck-type suites. Things that actually do simulate reality and might cause people to question whether they truly are in a simulation as opposed to real life. However, that would also give cause to question further things, like movies and the impact of tv.
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crazy_dave: Well I think part of the defensiveness comes from the fact that no other media gets criminal sanctions for minors getting their hands on...
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StingingVelvet: Well their argument is that the interactivity matters, something comic books, movies, music and whatever else never had. A simulation is different from a presentation. Is this a real concern? So far studies say no, but more studies is fine by me. I like to discover facts, as Vice President Biden said.

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crazy_dave: I think we do need to improve parental controls and increase parent's awareness of those controls as cable tried to do several years ago, but I don't think we should be at the point (yet) that we talk of criminalizing the sales of improper video games unless it is eventually shown that it does truly harm their development.
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StingingVelvet: I'm not for criminalizing unless a true link is shown either. In the short-term I would be for even greater self-governance, including fines for improper advertising and perhaps multiple versions of games, with blood and without and similar things. Of course none of that helps the core issue which is parental ambivalence.

And parental ambivalence is why the government needs to step in if a true effect is discovered.
Personally, I think it's sad that the government HAS to adapt for parental ambivalence. When I was at a young age, frequently, my father wouldn't let me play a game until he'd played it first and okayed it. As I grew older, he allowed and exposed me to more and more, AS IT SHOULD BE. I guess it's more of a commentary about how uninvolved American parents are becoming, or maybe their failure to understand what the game ratings actually mean.

Frankly, this could all be solved by responsible parents, parenting responsibly.
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LiquidOxygen80: Personally, I think it's sad that the government HAS to adapt for parental ambivalence. When I was at a young age, frequently, my father wouldn't let me play a game until he'd played it first and okayed it. As I grew older, he allowed and exposed me to more and more, AS IT SHOULD BE. I guess it's more of a commentary about how uninvolved American parents are becoming, or maybe their failure to understand what the game ratings actually mean.

Frankly, this could all be solved by responsible parents, parenting responsibly.
My kid is 15 and I still do this. At this point there are very few games that he wants that I won't let him play, but he gets his hands on nothing until I at least have tried a demo. It's simply common sense parenting, IMO.
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Fomalhaut30: At what point though, can we finally say that we've studied something "enough"?
I'm not sure, but I resist the idea we have reached that level currently.
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Fomalhaut30: At what point though, can we finally say that we've studied something "enough"?
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StingingVelvet: I'm not sure, but I resist the idea we have reached that level currently.
That's the problem. Everyone has a differing benchmark of what constitutes enough studies. For some people, there will never be enough, again unless and until they get the answer they want. There's only so many times that something needs to be confirmed before it becomes a waste of resources to continue to confirm it when nothing significant has changed in the presentation or the usage of the product.
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Fomalhaut30: That's the problem. Everyone has a differing benchmark of what constitutes enough studies. For some people, there will never be enough, again unless and until they get the answer they want. There's only so many times that something needs to be confirmed before it becomes a waste of resources to continue to confirm it when nothing significant has changed in the presentation or the usage of the product.
And some would say you're only happy with current research because it says what YOU want. It's all relative.

In the end I don't fear more study.
This is interesting, found these references in the comments section on another site with this story Three distinct studies, all peer reviewed, that showed no causal link between video game violence and anti-social behaviors:

A longitudinal test of video game violence influences on dating and aggression: A 3-year longitudinal study of adolescents.

Ferguson, Christopher J. CJFerguson1111@aol.com
San Miguel, Claudia1
Garza, Adolfo1
Jerabeck, Jessica M.

Source:Journal of Psychiatric Research; Feb2012, Vol. 46 Issue 2, p141-146, 6p

Abstract: Background: In 2011 the field of video game violence experienced serious reversals with repudiations of the current research by the US Supreme Court and the Australian Government as non-compelling and fundamentally flawed. Scholars too have been calling for higher quality research on this issue. The current study seeks to answer this call by providing longitudinal data on youth aggression and dating violence as potential consequences of violent video game exposure using well-validated clinical outcome measures and controlling for other relevant predictors of youth aggression. Method: A sample of 165, mainly Hispanic youth, were tested at 3 intervals, an initial interview, and 1-year and 3-year intervals. Results: Results indicated that exposure to video game violence was not related to any of the negative outcomes. Depression, antisocial personality traits, exposure to family violence and peer influences were the best predictors of aggression-related outcomes. Interpretation: The current study supports a growing body of evidence pointing away from video game violence use as a predictor of youth aggression. Public policy efforts, including funding, would best be served by redirecting them toward other prevention programs for youth violence. [Copyright &y& Elsevier]

Causal or spurious: Using propensity score matching to detangle the relationship between violent video games and violent behavior.

Gunter, Whitney D.1 whitney.gunter@wmich.edu
Daly, Kevin2 kevdaly@udel.edu

Source:Computers in Human Behavior; Jul2012, Vol. 28 Issue 4, p1348-1355, 8p

Abstract: Throughout the past decade, numerous states have passed legislation to prohibit the sale of violent video games to children, usually in conjunction with an argument that exposure to violent media increases violent behavior. However, the link between video games and violence is not yet fully understood. This study uses propensity score matching as a method to more adequately address the underlying issue of causality. Using a sample of 6567 8th grade students, these analyses test whether there is a causal link between playing violent video games and violence, non-violent deviance and substance use. Results indicate a substantial decrease in the relationship between video games and these outcomes when a matched sample is used. This suggests that the strength of evidence supporting a relationship has likely been overestimated using other methodologies. [Copyright &y& Elsevier]

Video Games and Youth Violence: A Prospective Analysis in Adolescents.

Ferguson, Christopher J.1 CJFerguson1111@Aol.com

Source:Journal of Youth & Adolescence; Apr2011, Vol. 40 Issue 4, p377-391, 15p, 2 Diagrams, 2 Charts, 1 Graph

The potential influence of violent video games on youth violence remains an issue of concern for psychologists, policymakers and the general public. Although several prospective studies of video game violence effects have been conducted, none have employed well validated measures of youth violence, nor considered video game violence effects in context with other influences on youth violence such as family environment, peer delinquency, and depressive symptoms. The current study builds upon previous research in a sample of 302 (52.3% female) mostly Hispanic youth. Results indicated that current levels of depressive symptoms were a strong predictor of serious aggression and violence across most outcome measures. Depressive symptoms also interacted with antisocial traits so that antisocial individuals with depressive symptoms were most inclined toward youth violence. Neither video game violence exposure, nor television violence exposure, were prospective predictors of serious acts of youth aggression or violence. These results are put into the context of criminological data on serious acts of violence among youth. [ABSTRACT FROM AUTHOR]
Post edited January 25, 2013 by cogadh
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StingingVelvet: And some would say you're only happy with current research because it says what YOU want. It's all relative.

In the end I don't fear more study.
Fair enough. I don't fear it either, but it handwaves away the REAL problems with our society and continues to use video games as a scapegoat. The same scapegoating that goes on with every generation. You'd think people that lived through the rock n' roll goating, the motion picture goating, the comic book goating, would realize that they are doing the same thing their parents did.
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cogadh: snip
Yep. In fact, the peer-reviewed studies are nigh-unanimous in their conclusion that there is little to no causal link between videogame violence and true real-world violence. Yet the "debate" continues. Is it because the news media view computer games as competition that needs to be squashed, or are they fear-mongering like they always do, or are they just ignorant? Hard to say.

Since they obviously WANT it to be true, the danger is that if one single study finds a link then all the other years of research will be ignored and the overblown media coverage will cause some some overly emotional bill to be passed in Congress that imposes draconian restrictions on games.
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Fomalhaut30: Fair enough. I don't fear it either, but it handwaves away the REAL problems with our society and continues to use video games as a scapegoat. The same scapegoating that goes on with every generation. You'd think people that lived through the rock n' roll goating, the motion picture goating, the comic book goating, would realize that they are doing the same thing their parents did.
Agreed.

It's all about finding easy answers. Guns cannot be removed from America, it's a preposterous notion. You also can't get rid of how competitive, individual-focused and dog-eat-dog we are in a hundred years, let alone ten. And the whole mental illness debate factors directly into socialized medicine, which conservatives see as pure evil.

Video games are an easy answer.
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Cormoran: The study it cites, and more specifically the person who headed it, is of questionable legitimacy.

In debating these idiots we give them a certain air of legitimacy. The general public don't follow up on whether or not the debate was won or lost (note that Dr. Andersons' previous studies on this issue have been rejected by the courts that considered them) they only ever hear that there was a debate.
It's like when people debate or just plain take serious, creationists.

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Fomalhaut30: At what point though, can we finally say that we've studied something "enough"? There's only so much to be gleaned, but IMO, the people who have a bone to pick with the medium won't rest unless and until they finally get the answer they want. Namely that there is a direct & causative link between video games and real life actions. Until they finally get that answer, it'll always, again IMO, be that there needs to be more studies performed.
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bevinator: Since they obviously WANT it to be true, the danger is that if one single study finds a link then all the other years of research will be ignored and the overblown media coverage will cause some some overly emotional bill to be passed in Congress that imposes draconian restrictions on games.
Reminds me of that one episode of Futurama. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxrxnPG05SU
It's short and I'd rather not try explaining it.
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Fomalhaut30: At what point though, can we finally say that we've studied something "enough"? There's only so much to be gleaned, but IMO, the people who have a bone to pick with the medium won't rest unless and until they finally get the answer they want. Namely that there is a direct & causative link between video games and real life actions. Until they finally get that answer, it'll always, again IMO, be that there needs to be more studies performed.
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Immoli: Reminds me of that one episode of Futurama. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RxrxnPG05SU
It's short and I'd rather not try explaining it.
The best example I can think of for this?

Childhood immunizations. One guy comes out with a study (that is later debunked and the author lost his medical license, iirc) that vaccines cause autism, and everyone loses their shit. The fact that it was debunked means nothing to them.

(Dammit, I hate trying to get the goddamn quote system in this forum to work properly...]
Post edited January 26, 2013 by Fomalhaut30