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Potzato: Comparative ads are crap. I am glad this is forbidden in europe (afaik it is still the case).
I don't even know if it's actually forbidden, but as all things that are forbidden, it doesn't work. There was a big Burger King commercial when they laughed at McD's customers and they just removed the McD's logo from the ad.

http://rembiejewski.pl/blog/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/burger-king_reklama_20130314_inny-burger.jpg

The conclusion was that burgers from McD are shit and people who buy there are stupid. But they removed the logo, so it's fine!
Post edited December 01, 2013 by keeveek
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hedwards: It's MS, I couldn't help but notice that little lie about Office, who in their right mind uses that flaming turd any more?
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Wishbone: I think most people who need to write documents as part of their work do, since MS Office is what most companies use.
Indeed - due to the turd of a binary format that is the 2003 DOC format, I'm reliant on Microsoft Office for my translation work because LibreOffice is often unable to reproduce the layout completely accurately.

I do prefer LibreOffice - it's a much nicer office package, but economic realities entail my enslaving myself to the piece of shit that is Microsoft Office 2010.

Not upgrading though unless I really, really have to.
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hedwards: ...
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Fenixp: Yeah, I won't be learning shortcut keys. Sorry, can't bother. With that in mind, the new Office interface always gives me exactly the set of options that I need in the particular situation that I'm in, without searching for the options obscurely tucked away in sub-menus of other sub-menus. So yeah, it seems my experience is the precise opposite of yours - the old interface always felt clunky and unintuitive to me, which is a belief you have now streghtened by talking of shortcut keys. The new one, on the other hand, always gives me precisely what I need at the time I need it.
So in other words, you don't actually care about productivity and don't even really know what productivity is.Because short cut keys are going to beat the crap out of that ribbon bullshit every day of the week.

The Ribbon was a miserable failure of a UI and the sooner that MS puts it out to pasture along with "Bob" the better. It's pretty much a festering boil on the buttocks of humanity.

Previously the UI was relatively neatly sorted into menus and submenus and for the most part if you wanted something it was easy enough to find it. Now, you have to guess whether or not it was considered to be important enough for MS to include in the ribbon, or guess where exactly they hid that function you only need occasionally.

The fact that people need a book in order to use the basic functionality of the software is a pretty good hint that it's not usable and for a GUI it's really unacceptable.
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hedwards: ...
Oh well, I actually wanted to discuss the topic, but your 'I'm right, you're wrong' mentality makes it quite difficult. Off you go then, you're completely right, I am just masochistic, hate myself and that's why I vastly prefer the ribbon approach. ... I'm typing this on my TV as well. .. Oh, right, sorry, terribly sorry about that, waste of my powerful PC, no way in hell a matter of preference, you're right about everything, ever :-P
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hedwards: ...
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Fenixp: Oh well, I actually wanted to discuss the topic, but your 'I'm right, you're wrong' mentality makes it quite difficult. Off you go then, you're completely right, I am just masochistic, hate myself and that's why I vastly prefer the ribbon approach. ... I'm typing this on my TV as well. .. Oh, right, sorry, terribly sorry about that, waste of my powerful PC, no way in hell a matter of preference, you're right about everything, ever :-P
I'm not right about everything. But, I've been using computers for nearly 30 years now and have used a crapload of different interfaces over the years. And in this case they've added additional clicks to most of the functions hoping that nobody notices.

The ones that MS "innovates" to are usually sub par at best. In this case, it might work better than the previous UI for people that are too lazy to learn any of the short cuts, but it's an inferior product and it's no surprise that it's just MS that's doing this. Apple, even before Steve died, wasn't stupid enough to engage in any of this foolishness. Specifically because it's crap. It looks kind of pretty, but whenever you need a function that they don't want you to use, it takes several extra clicks,assuming you know where it is, otherwise it's off to the internet to figure it out and probably a couple dozen extra clicks as you try to determine if it's even in your version of Office.

Personally, I'll take a Libreoffice. or pretty much anything other than Office, where the people writing it haven't gone insane and are a bit more concerned with having a user experience that actually makes sense.
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hedwards: it might work better than the previous UI for people that are too lazy to learn any of the short cuts
Which is kind of the point. For those who do know and use the shortcuts, the UI doesn't much matter now, does it?

Then again, I use Abiword (or Wordpad, Text Edit, or other equivalent if bundled with the OS) and Gnumeric as I have little need for a Boeing 747 to go down the street (if I want layout, I use an application built for the task, say Indesign or Scribus).
Post edited December 01, 2013 by Maighstir
im fairly sure that breaks a few laws.....

n not to jump smack in the middle of a debate but i have to second this guys comments, ive been feeling Exactly the same for many years since i was forced to upgrade from office 2003! it just makes no sense to make things more difficult....

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hedwards: but whenever you need a function that they don't want you to use, it takes several extra clicks,assuming you know where it is, otherwise it's off to the internet to figure it out and probably a couple dozen extra clicks as you try to determine if it's even in your version of Office.
Post edited December 01, 2013 by chezybezy
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hedwards: I'm not right about everything. But, I've been using computers for nearly 30 years now and have used a crapload of different interfaces over the years. And in this case they've added additional clicks to most of the functions hoping that nobody notices.
It takes me less clicks to get most functionality. Well, two to be more precise - switch to needed tab, click desired setting. In the old MS office, it was - click cathegory, click sub-cathegory, find the option amongst tons of others that I don't actually use most of the time, apply.

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hedwards: The ones that MS "innovates" to are usually sub par at best. In this case, it might work better than the previous UI for people that are too lazy to learn any of the short cuts, but it's an inferior product and it's no surprise that it's just MS that's doing this. Apple, even before Steve died, wasn't stupid enough to engage in any of this foolishness. Specifically because it's crap. It looks kind of pretty, but whenever you need a function that they don't want you to use, it takes several extra clicks,assuming you know where it is, otherwise it's off to the internet to figure it out and probably a couple dozen extra clicks as you try to determine if it's even in your version of Office.
Basically, your argumentation here is: It's crap, others weren't stupid enough to do it, the old UI is far superior when you don't actually work with UI [using shortcuts]. Just to point that out, you're trying to argue that your preference is actually better unless end user is lazy (which 99% of end users are) - that's not actually what I said, that's what your line sounds like. Let's just say that it's not very persuasive :-P You're saying that you need to use google when trying to find a less used functionality... Well I'm saying I've had to do that more in the old Office than in the new one.

I'll just add this: We're making a good deal of software for fairly varied clientelle, and our clients specifically ask for a ribbon interface, or one that's similar to it. You can now go 'It's MS pushing their ideas!' or whatever, but that doesn't change reality of the situation.

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hedwards: Personally, I'll take a Libreoffice. or pretty much anything other than Office, where the people writing it haven't gone insane and are a bit more concerned with having a user experience that actually makes sense.
Yes, exactly, you take LibreOffice. We actually have options now. We can pick from several distinct interfaces and stick to whatever we prefer. Choice is always good - calling preferences of other people crap based on your 30 years of experience, which just makes me even more inclined to believe that it's just something you're used to, is bad.
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hedwards: it might work better than the previous UI for people that are too lazy to learn any of the short cuts
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Maighstir: Which is kind of the point. For those who do know and use the shortcuts, the UI doesn't much matter now, does it?

Then again, I use Abiword (or Wordpad, Text Edit, or other equivalent if bundled with the OS) and Gnumeric as I have little need for a Boeing 747 to go down the street (if I want layout, I use an application built for the task, say Indesign or Scribus).
I'd suggest that it matters even more. Now rather than having instructions that say hit ctrl+ whatever, you know have to walk them through a labyrinth of menus options to get to something that would have previously been easily located under one of the menus on the main screen. And the context shifting makes it even that much more difficult.

And rather than just having to remember what the function is and roughly where it is, you have to remember exactly where it is, and pray that MS doesn't move it with the next upgrade. Ironically, that's more to remember than you previously had to remember. Plus, with all the shifting of the "smart" ribbon, you've got to move your mouse all over the place if you're not using the shortcut keys.

The thing though is that anybody that's not concerned about productivity enough to know the short cuts for the things they use regularly, is in no position to claim that productivity is increased by this bullshit.

Just in general, the UI is a complete mess that adds a ton of clicks to somewhat less often used functions and a lot of extra mouse work for things that you do use regularly.

I've been helping people with recent versions of Office lately and whereas with previous versions of Office, I could find most obscure functions within a couple minutes without previously knowing where they were, now I have to guess what MS thinks that function is, whether MS thinks it's a popular function and then play find the hidden pixel for the location of the menu item.
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hedwards: The thing though is that anybody that's not concerned about productivity enough to know the short cuts for the things they use regularly, is in no position to claim that productivity is increased by this bullshit.
I'm in no position to claim that my productivity is increased? I suppose you're in position to claim that my productivity is decreased then?
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hedwards: The thing though is that anybody that's not concerned about productivity enough to know the short cuts for the things they use regularly, is in no position to claim that productivity is increased by this bullshit.
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Fenixp: I'm in no position to claim that my productivity is increased? I suppose you're in position to claim that my productivity is decreased then?
You're in no position to claim that Ribbon increases productivity. A sample size of 1 isn't anything to go on. It's also rather astonishing that you don't think it's odd that it's pretty much only MS that's going this route. If Ribbon really were brilliant, I'm curious as to why it is that it's not taken off.

Apart from Vuescan, I haven't seen it anywhere else and the guy that did Vuescan went to great lengths to make sure that all the applicable options are still readily visible. Rather than relying upon statistical analysis to guess what users want.

There've been a few improvements over the years, but the basic desktop paradigm was perfected sometime in the late '90s. Oddly enough that was about the time that Apple was finishing OSX.

Anyways, I've got better things to do with my time. It's just a shame that everybody else has to suffer through this bullshit because people would rather waste time on bullshit while they're using the software rather than a few minutes here and there learning to use it effectively.
Since MS introduced ribbon interface plus when you move a mouse near selected object it displays a context menu without me even clicking anything I could never imagine going back to the old ass navigation menu system.

If even internet browsers are dropping this atrocity, it means it's outdated.

But it's my personal opinion, and because it's mine it means I am correct and others are wrong.

Ps. I know most of the daily-used shortcuts and I use them since 2000, and it has nothing to do with my ribbon preference.
Post edited December 01, 2013 by keeveek
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hedwards: It's MS, I couldn't help but notice that little lie about Office, who in their right mind uses that flaming turd any more?
Sadly, Calc cannot replace Excel.
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hedwards: A sample size of 1 isn't anything to go on.
And you're a sample size of... how many?

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hedwards: the basic desktop paradigm was perfected sometime in the late '90s.
So no room for improvement at all? It was perfect? In the late 90's? In the era of Windows 98? Really?

Anyway, the main reason for the Ribbon interface was discoverability. MS did the research and found that most requested features were already in Office.

From the UI guy's blog.

One of the concepts behind the Ribbon is that it's the one and only place to look for functionality in the product. If you want to look through Word 2003 to find an unfamiliar command, you need to look through 3 levels of hierarchical menus, open up 31 toolbars and peruse about 20 Task Panes. It's hard to formulate a "hunting" strategy to find the thing you're looking for because there's no logical path through all of the UI.

Office "12" consolidates all of the entry points into one place: the Ribbon. So if you're trying to find a feature and don't know where it is, the scope of your search is drastically reduced. Click on the leftmost tab, and click across the tabs until you reach the end. That it. It's either there or it's not--there are no other "rocks" to look under, no other places we've hidden functionality. We've found in early tests that people find it easier to discover how to do new things in the Ribbon, and they're more apt to explore the UI looking for better ways to get things done.
Note also that power users can add controls to the quick access toolbar for the most commonly used features. It's also important to note that:

All of the keyboard shortcuts in Office continue to work exactly as they did in previous versions. In fact, we're doing more in the UI to advertise the keyboard shortcuts and adding new ones based on usage data. That's because keyboard shortcuts will usually be the single most efficient way to perform commands with the keyboard.
Post edited December 01, 2013 by ChrisSD
Although I hate MS and their crappy products, I am glad they are pointing out that main goal of Google is to collect as much information about you as possible. All Google products are built around one idea, sending more private information to google servers to add to whatever profiling they are doing over there. They use it now for ADs but who knows what will happen soon.