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grviper: Here's my avatar from Dragon Age 1. Women absolutely loved him...
Oops, forgot the beard pic.
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cheesetruncheon: oh wow, that's just... yeah. Good Show.

My character I play around with in Oblivion is called 'ALGOR PUNCHER OF BEASTS' and I find it more engaging and fun to run around grunting and punching small woodland animals in the face. Helps me feel a better connection with him that the written story just can't provide.
Well Oblivion is just a terrible WRPG to start with. Nothing in that game is really good. A game like Planescape Torment provides an amazing story with choices of how you want to play the game.
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Sogi-Ya: except when none of your choices really effect anything in the end, or when your sidekicks do all the talking for you so the story stays on track. honestly many JRPGs are guilty of that second thing, but I have yet to see a Bioware game that was more than a side kick simulator as your perfectly crafted main character gets dragged along by the secondary characters like a kid with roller blades on trying to walk a rottweiler on a leash.

"yippie! I get to pick who I fuck" is about the only thing you can have an effect on in those games, and even then you gotta kiss ass in every single conversation to get some.

there are notable exceptions (the witcher & Morrowind being two prime examples) but for the most part I'm with cheesetruncheon in preferring JRPGs for their story. there are plenty of bad JRPGs (just like anything) but for the most part I find their format much more entertaining than WRPGs.

I would like to make a disclaimer though: WRPGs do not natively include all CRPGs, especially early CRPGs ... to me WRPGs are mostly contained to Bioware & Oblivion clones.
There is your problem. Both of these companies have never been about choice. Bioware is about the illusion of choice and a cinematic story. Oblivion type games are more about exploring and less about making choices.

Bioware has made linear games since Baldur's Gate 2 that give the illusion of freedom. The choices are more of the 'cosmetic' sort where you get to choose your style of answer. I still prefer that to a lot of JRPGs.

Oblivion didn't have choices either because it isn't an RPG. It is an action adventure game with RPG elements. Same with Fallout 3.

Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout: New Vegas, Arcanum, Bloodlines, Gothic, Gothic 2, Deus Ex, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, The Witcher and the Witcher 2 are all games that have different choices that allow for different outcomes from the top of my head. If I started digging I could pull up more.

Current games don't do the genre justice. Do yourself a favor and buy every game that came out of Black Isle and Troika.
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Whiteblade999: Fallout, Fallout 2, Fallout: New Vegas, Arcanum, Bloodlines, Gothic, Gothic 2, Deus Ex, Deus Ex: Human Revolution, The Witcher and the Witcher 2 are all games that have different choices that allow for different outcomes from the top of my head. If I started digging I could pull up more.

Current games don't do the genre justice. Do yourself a favor and buy every game that came out of Black Isle and Troika.
Anyone else noticed the irony in that statement?
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DelusionsBeta: Anyone else noticed the irony in that statement?
The list isn't whether the games are good or not, just that they have choice.
Post edited August 28, 2011 by Whiteblade999
If you go with the assumption that "choice" is what makes an RPG, then there's actually a very small list of games that actually are definable as RPG's.

Or you could go with the assumption that any game that allows you freedom in character actions, equipment, and motivations is an RPG. Then it's a rather large list.
Choice in dialogue is certainly a factor but not he only one. Icewind Dale or Diablo let you have the choice of how you customize the character whether it be equipment like you said or the skills. You lose other options if you take a certain path. So they are both RPGs.

However, I don't consider games like Oblivion or Fallout 3 because they have no real choices in dialogue and there is no choice in character progression. Everyone levels with you and the way skills are set up there is absolutely no need to specialize. Nothing wrong with being a hybrid at something but how the hell can you justify being a master of everything from a roleplaying perspective?
Post edited August 28, 2011 by Whiteblade999
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Whiteblade999: Choice in dialogue is certainly a factor but not he only one. Icewind Dale or Diablo let you have the choice of how you customize the character whether it be equipment like you said or the skills. You lose other options if you take a certain path. So they are both RPGs.

However, I don't consider games like Oblivion or Fallout 3 because they have no real choices in dialogue and there is no choice in character progression. Everyone levels with you and the way skills are set up there is absolutely no need to specialize. Nothing wrong with being a hybrid at something but how the hell can you justify being a master of everything from a roleplaying perspective?
Whola lotta training.

Honestly, if you want to see someone RP a modded Oblivion pretty well, there's an LP'er I watch named Veriax. He doesn't game Oblivion's systems, he tries to make the right character choices, he even remembers to rest often & eat.

You can roleplay any game, as by definition you are playing a "role". It just depends on how you tackle it.
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Heretic777: [See it is called an opinion. Nowhere did I state that you have to agree with it, but you do have to accept it. If you have a problem with that... well that's just it... Its your problem not mine.]
Well, while I agree with most of what you have said in this thread, your statement about opinions is one I cannot. Since grade school, you are taught that everyone has an opinion, and that opinion's can't be wrong.

That is most DEFINITELY true. I would estimate that most people's opinions are wrong most of the time, because most people use the word "opinion" where they should use "uninformed".
I guess I missed the memo where "cutesy" or "kiddie" were knocks on games. Go play The Maw and tell me it's a bad game (not a RPG, btw, but cutesy and kiddie), I rarely mock people for their opinions on gameplay but if you actually think it's bad I'll maintain you have no taste.

Those cutesy graphics are actually called stylized and make a game age better visually (in general, at least), that's why MMOs tend to go for a stylized look since they run a long time on the same engine. The stories are just that, stories, some good and some bad.

Half the people bitching about JRPGs probably liked Harry Potter (or something equally soda pop), at least statistically, so it's rather obtuse to turn up your nose at the light hearted trash that you don't happen to like.
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Heretic777: I was watching a friend play FF13 and all he did was press the X button for all the battles and won easily without any strategy at all including boss fights. He then ran along a clear path to the next cutscene and boss and started pressing X again. I didn't see any roleplaying at all.
I'm curious exactly what "role playing" you think actually exists in cRPGs. Perhaps you meant "roll playing", yes the computer will roll virtual dice for you. As for role playing you may want to pick up some pen and paper Pathfinder or AD&D 4th ed. sometime, you can actually role play in those (with the correct play group). All you can do in cRPGs is follow a few dialog trees, rarely do they do much more than trigger or bypass a fight, possibly influence which of the 2 or 3 cutscene endings you get to watch.
Post edited August 28, 2011 by orcishgamer
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Heretic777: [See it is called an opinion. Nowhere did I state that you have to agree with it, but you do have to accept it. If you have a problem with that... well that's just it... Its your problem not mine.]
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anjohl: Well, while I agree with most of what you have said in this thread, your statement about opinions is one I cannot. Since grade school, you are taught that everyone has an opinion, and that opinion's can't be wrong.

That is most DEFINITELY true. I would estimate that most people's opinions are wrong most of the time, because most people use the word "opinion" where they should use "uninformed".
I messed up the quote field. I didn't say that. I was actually responding to that by saying that I was not bashing jrpg, just that I couldn't relate to the character I was trying to roleplay.
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orcishgamer: I'm curious exactly what "role playing" you think actually exists in cRPGs. Perhaps you meant "roll playing", yes the computer will roll virtual dice for you. As for role playing you may want to pick up some pen and paper Pathfinder or AD&D 4th ed. sometime, you can actually role play in those (with the correct play group). All you can do in cRPGs is follow a few dialog trees, rarely do they do much more than trigger or bypass a fight, possibly influence which of the 2 or 3 cutscene endings you get to watch.
Atmosphere, immersion and characters that I can relate to are most important for roleplaying. There are many games that I consider rpg that most people don't. For example, the THIEF series. There's no leveling or char dev, but the atmosphere, immersion is so powerful that I become Garrett and live in his city for hours on end. Its just easier for me to roleplay characters that are believable, that seem real.
Right now I'm playing Gothic1. The hero, other characters and the world feels and looks rough/tough just like a real prison colony. They created an immersive enviroment that feels real and believable. Its so much easier to roleplay the hero under these conditions.

If the developers had made the hero and the other characters in the game like anime teenagers and the world bright and cheery, it wouldn't feel right and I wouldn't enjoy the game or believe in the characters/world.

Japanese developers need to keep in mind that the face of gaming has changed. There are alot of adult gamers that don't want to play a teenage anime hero in all their rpgs and it just seems to me that most jrpgs are made this way. If they made more serious and believable characters/world/story, I think their sales would increase significantly.
Umm, just to point out that you are viewing this as a Westerner. You have no idea how the Japanese feel about playing a teenage hero in their games. Although, I would think they still enjoy since they continue to make and sell them by the truckload. Just pointing out that different viewpoints/cultures/etc affect what kind of games get made.

Not that your opinion is wrong, just that if you're talking about jrpgs and saying they need to stop being made, it would mean more if you were the average "j" in the whole "jrpg" instead of the average "w" in "wrpg".
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Heretic777: Japanese developers need to keep in mind that the face of gaming has changed. There are alot of adult gamers that don't want to play a teenage anime hero in all their rpgs and it just seems to me that most jrpgs are made this way. If they made more serious and believable characters/world/story, I think their sales would increase significantly.
Are you trollin' or what? There is a difference between expressing an opinion & expressing an opinion as fact. You are pretty much going the path of the latter with the above statement. Lets dissect what you just said shall we?

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Heretic777: Japanese developers need to keep in mind that the face of gaming has changed.
Yes... it is all about guns, guns & more guns nowadays. Does that mean every game should be a FPS Hybrid?

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Heretic777: There are alot of adult gamers that don't want to play a teenage anime hero in all their rpgs and it just seems to me that most jrpgs are made this way.
Then how about you just don't play those games? They obviously aren't meant for you or your "sophisticated" tastes. Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that it is fact. There are also a lot of adult gamers that don't want to play as some one dimensional tough guy/no dimensional random character in all of their RPGs.... and Y'know what? It happens that most WRPGs are made this way. Does that mean that they should stop being made? NO... because they have there fans. There are games for everybody. Just play those that appeal to you.

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Heretic777: If they made more serious and believable characters/world/story, I think their sales would increase significantly.
You do realize that you are talking about a video game right? The whole point is to escape reality. Kinda like you do when you play your beloved WRPGs.... Y'know... the ones that feature "realist" stories about saving the world from some mystical force set in a "realist" medieval fairytale/technologically futurist/hellspawned world populated by "realist" creatures such as cat people, elves, orcs, magical fairies, goblins, androids & various other assorted fabled creatures. Forget all that though... If every game featured Joe walking to Walmart on a quest for milk, I think their sales would increase significantly.
Post edited August 28, 2011 by Roberttitus
JRPGs are heavily influenced by Anime and I daresay that only those who like anime would enjoy a JRPRG

Just like in Anime you would have Shonen and Seinen(which is anime geared for an adult audience like Berserk)....it should be the same in JRPG's too. However it is not so as most JRPGs are shonen material. The only few good ones I think of are Valkyrie Profile, Suikoden, Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga)to an extent) and Lost Odyssey.