Of course they are, I've explained this over and over again and no one ever seems to listen.

Let me preface this by saying, no, they're sure as hell not perfect and I wish a lot of things were better. But when I compare it to PC gaming it's largely a net win.

Yes, Project 10 Dollar sucks fucking ass, frankly it's a damn site better than what PC gamers put up with, though. And if you could still dispose of your games I promise you you'd be participating in "the project" as well.

As for DRM, no, discs have copy protection, obviously there's no need to ever ask permission to play your disc game, you bought it, you can play it, loan it, sell it, let everyone in your house play it, etc.

DRM on Arcade titles: when you download an Arcade title you get two "keys" one is tied to the console signature and one is tied to the your account. You can play using both of these (you have to be online to use your account key), you can also let someone play the console key while you play the account key (even co-op with them). Console keys can be moved from console to console with some limits to the number of moves per year. This is DRM at the very least on the account key. The console key could be argued as DRM or a really fancy CD key and I couldn't tell you for sure which one it was without knowing the implementation details, I do know once you have it you never have to ask MS permission to play again on that console, so it's certainly not recurring activation.

DLC: downloaded works the same as Arcade, disc based DLC has no DRM. Yes, that's right, you can install the disc based DLC and pass on the disc, if you really want. You don't need it again. DIsc DLC used to be quite a bit easier to find, but given the GOTY editions it's sometimes easier to just wait for a disc that has everything.

The main thing is, most games are actually disc based, we pass those around, play with friends, find out some of them suck (*cough*RAGE*cough*) and swap them with a buddy for one they didn't like.

I'm not even going to try and defend the whole Gold thing here, I can see exactly why so many hate the idea, but I still think they're wrong.

This is excactly what I meant with Steam beeing a godsend for indie. SpaceChem is a brilliant game and I would probably never played it with out Steam.

And Kudos!

Maybe they are, I have no reason to believe that's true, though, despite the articles about the next-box disallowing used discs I just don't think it'll happen. They may do it someday, but the fact is that it's not that way right now and that's why many folks play console games.
I'm pretty sure Space Chem ended up in HIB or similar. That means you could have played it without Steam:)

This I agree with, and it is nothing wrong with a customer going in a dialogue with a provider.I am not happy with it being public all the time, and each time it is nothing new. I do not think that any open letters on random forums like this will have any impact. That dialogue will not happen there.

What I have a problem with is that some feel that if a game is published on steam it is deprived from them because they do not want to use steam - it is not, it is you who do not want to use the distribution model which have been chosen. It is there, you just do not want it in its current format. This goes for all products when you have chosen a particulate political / economical / moral standpoint. The product is not deprived from you, you have chosen not to participate.

And why did those games not land on PC? Oh wait, right, full circle, welcome back.

Would it have ended up in the HIB without Steam?

Copy pasting my own post out of laziness as response:

"What I have a problem with is that some feel that if a game is published on steam it is deprived from them because they do not want to use steam - it is not, it is you who do not want to use the distribution model which have been chosen. It is there, you just do not want it in its current format. This goes for all products when you have chosen a particulate political / economical / moral standpoint. The product is not deprived from you, you have chosen not to participate."

Not semantic- different ways of seeing.

Yes, we've come full circle that Sony and Microsoft did not release the game franchises they own on PC. What's your theory on Mario?

Demon Souls is Japanese as well, which we all know have always shown such massive support for the western PC gaming market in the past.

He sells it from his own website too, and on GamersGate. Not the DLC though. =(

I agree that Steam has certainly a lot of advantages, but I read the comment feed and nowhere could find any argument why this DLC had to be Steam exclusive. Seems to me more like a marketing move. They just concentrate on the plattform Steam, although better alternatives are thinkable and would work if only the people wouldn't concentrate on only this one.

I always wondered, if Steam treats you worse if you offer all your products also without Steam? If you get any disadvantages compared to another publisher that remains Steam exclusive/only. That I would really don't like.

Of course it's difficult to find this out. Nobody will convey the truth, only rumours.
It does not seem to be a technical reason, at least I couldn't find any arguments for it.. More like a marketing move to increase the attractiveness of the Steam selling channel.

I think it was a mod of Half Life 2 initially, but the version they have just released is not a mod. It uses Source, but that does not force them to release only through Steam.

Yeah, that's the main problem. It's the land of NDAs and non-public sales figures, which is why everyone in this thread is operating on just rumours, hearsay and personal feelings.

We are getting to somewhere here. Where does it say that the behavior I criticize from Steam is illegal? Is there any legislation that says that Steam cannot do that (in which case, it is not being applied) that you know of? I may have to read it again, but in the link I gave you a lawyer explicitly says that the kind of abusive (not illegal) practices that DRM and Subscribers Agreements like the one of Steam can lead too are not proven to be illegal at all.

Dark Messiah and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines are both Source engine games but neither are tied to Steam. Those days are gone though. Valve have since decided to be arseholes by tying the licensing of Source games to Steam in the licensing conditions.

Removing games withour reason? That isn't legal. And I don't know spanish laws, but most of Steam SSA isn't even binding in Europe due to consumer protection laws.

Their usage as DRM is legal, but I don't call that abusive.
Yes, but with the one exception that rumors supporting my point are always true and that my personal feelings are always right.