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JudasIscariot: Oh the wealth was most definitely pocketed, one way or another, and it lead to a huge national debt ran up by the filthy communists...which was solved by selling off most of our industrial sector, including our Gdansk shipyards, after the change from communism to democracy in 1989.
No I'm genuinely curious. What I mean is, under communism did huge differences in income exist, for example did people in some jobs earn more money than others in different jobs? Did a manager of a factory for example earn a similar or equivalent amount than a private CEO/owner of a factory does under capitalism now?
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JudasIscariot: For us it was. Nothing like having secret police or major food shortages or having to stand in line for 3 or more hours on a Saturday for a loaf of bread.
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Emob78: The best kind of capitalist is the kind that used to live under communism. It takes a person being subjugated, taxed and worked to death by the force of State power to really appreciate the gift that is the OPPORTUNITY to succeed or fail in life. Pay heed to all who offer promises that they cannot hope to fulfill.
Thousands die every day from things like diarrhea in the Third World. And every country in the Third World is capitalist in it's economic system. Those people have practically zero opportunity, statistically speaking they will live their entire (short) lives in squalor.
Post edited October 27, 2015 by Crosmando
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R8V9F5A2: If you are a nationalist in Europe today your best, and perhaps only choice, are these right-wing parties.
Nationalism does not equal racism and bigotry, which much of popular media seems to think.
These parties attract various kinds of people with different goals, hopes and expectations.
Some of them are racists bigots but in my experience most of them are not.

Some of the followers mainly want less immigration, some seek policies that help the sick, unemployed and elderly, some wish for stronger solidarity within the country, some want all of this, and so on.

Two things have lead to these parties becoming really popular in Europe, in my opinion:
1. an increased "Americanization" of the economy
2. a large influx of Muslims into the EU
Polish nationalist aren't racist or facist. They are right-winged (well... they call it "third way"), catholic-democrats like Dmowski. People need to understand that nationalists don't want to destroy other countries (they even meet each other on festivals and other meetings) or kill innocent people like Hitler did. Unfortunelty there is alot of dumb skinheads (skullheads?) who destroy the good name of the movement.

White-nationalist parties are popular because of radical left-winged propaganda that says muslims and black people are discriminated by white people, because they exist.
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R8V9F5A2: Nationalism does not equal racism and bigotry, which much of popular media seems to think.
Racism and bigotry is derived from the delusional sense that one's own nation, race or culture is superior, so yes, Nationalism goes hand in hand with racism and bigotry. I think you're confusing patriotism with Nationalism, which is often referred to as "false patriotism" or "negative patriotism".
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JudasIscariot: We've survived communism, two world wars, and three partitions, I think we'll be fine :P
When people pull that argument ... comparing the current state of affairs to the worst nightmare imaginable, and concluding that things ain't that bad ... then thing truly are going down the drain.
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jamyskis: Racism and bigotry is derived from the delusional sense that one's own nation, race or culture is superior, so yes, Nationalism goes hand in hand with racism and bigotry. I think you're confusing patriotism with Nationalism, which is often referred to as "false patriotism" or "negative patriotism".
Only nationalist movment I know that thinks that their own country/race/something is superior were nazist. And, well, Narodowe Sily Zbrojne were against them.
Post edited October 27, 2015 by bykowsky
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bykowsky: Polish nationalist aren't racist or facist. They are right-winged (well... they call it "third way"), catholic-democrats like Dmowski. People need to understand that nationalists don't want to destroy other countries (they even meet each other on festivals and other meetings) or kill innocent people like Hitler did. Unfortunelty there is alot of dumb skinheads (skullheads?) who destroy the good name of the movement.
Indeed. PiS is actually more ultra-conservative than Nationalist - it's more condoning than encouraging of racial (and gender) discrimination, which is what you tend to expect of the hard right. When you combine racist or supremacist overtones in policy with that kind of conservatism, you get extreme-right National Conservatism, which is where Orbàn fits in.
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bykowsky: Only nationalist movment I know that thinks that their own country/race/something is superior were nazist. And, well, Narodowe Sily Zbrojne were against them.
If you listen to the rhetoric of many of the extreme-right parties (UKIP, Front National in particular, less so from the German far-right), you'll hear regular insults directed against not only Muslims, but also Jews, Roma and other European countries.

Ironically, as an exception, much of the anti-semitism in Germany is actually coming from the extreme left, although I suspect that the far-right simply avoids the topic to avoid criminal prosecution, not because they're not anti-semitic. In private, many of the far-right actually use the term "Juden" as a synonym for frugal (not in a nice way either) and call something "richtig jüdisch" to mean that it's really stupid. Trust me - I know this from coming from a village where NPD/Pegida/AfD support is pretty high.

The far left can get away with it legally, but the far right engaging in anti-semitism would just prove what they really are and push the legal boundaries a step too far.
Post edited October 27, 2015 by jamyskis
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Emob78: worked to death by the force of State power
Except that Americans (and most people in the world) are being worked to death, but not by the state, they are being worked to death by corporations.

Heck even in "affluent" America people's lives (every second of them) are owned by companies:

http://i.imgur.com/4ejuFPJ.png

Literally slaves.
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JudasIscariot: We've survived communism, two world wars, and three partitions, I think we'll be fine :P
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KasperHviid: When people pull that argument ... comparing the current state of affairs to the worst nightmare imaginable, and concluding that things ain't that bad ... then thing truly are going down the drain.
Well, I remember when under communism one US dollar was equal to 10,000 Polish Zloty (before the redenomination took place) and the economy was experiencing severe inflation to the point that 1,000 Polish Zloty couldn't even buy a packet of gum 6 months down the road.

Now, we don't have rampant inflation along with an oppressive regime that included secret police that would "disappear" people and people are enjoying a lot of the creature comforts that you'd see in most Western countries. So like I said, we'll be fine, we've survived worse :)
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Emob78: worked to death by the force of State power
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Crosmando: Except that Americans (and most people in the world) are being worked to death, but not by the state, they are being worked to death by corporations.

Heck even in "affluent" America people's lives (every second of them) are owned by companies:

http://i.imgur.com/4ejuFPJ.png

Literally slaves.
No one held a gun to their heads. CHOICE. Used to be a big component of social left groups in Europe and North America. Are we now cutting up the CHOICE pie into ever smaller pieces to dish out to the peasants?

And those nasty corporations you hate so much are being subsidized and floated by the tax dollars that your government seeks to offer them in the tithe plate.
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Emob78: No one held a gun to their heads. CHOICE.
If there's a choice, what's the alternative?
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jamyskis: Indeed. PiS is actually more ultra-conservative than Nationalist - it's more condoning than encouraging of racial (and gender) discrimination, which is what you tend to expect of the hard right. When you combine racist or supremacist overtones in policy with that kind of conservatism, you get extreme-right National Conservatism, which is where Orbàn fits in.
They're more like conservative-leftist (catholic-socialist, something like centrum) than real conservatives.

Well, I'm traditionalist (As I like to say - conservative+) and it's really sad to hear that people think we're anti-human or something. I don't hate anybody. I just want my country and my culture, my civilization, to live. It doesn't mean I want to destroy other civilizations or something ;)


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jamyskis: If you listen to the rhetoric of many of the extreme-right parties (UKIP, Front National in particular), you'll hear regular insults directed against not only Muslims, but also Jews and other European countries.
As I say - the only nationalist movement I know that hates other people are nazist. If parties like UKIP and Front National talks shit about other human-beings - don't vote for them. Kick their facist asses or something :)
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Emob78: No one held a gun to their heads. CHOICE.
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jamyskis: If there's a choice, what's the alternative?
Starvation.
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Emob78: No one held a gun to their heads. CHOICE.
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jamyskis: If there's a choice, what's the alternative?
Find one. If one is not available, make one. If oppressed from making one, force one. Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.
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Emob78: Find one. If one is not available, make one. If oppressed from making one, force one. Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.
Theoretically, slaves have the same "alternatives" open to them. You have a very, very naive perspective that's more grounded in fringe political theory than actual reality.
Post edited October 27, 2015 by jamyskis
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jamyskis: If there's a choice, what's the alternative?
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Emob78: Find one. If one is not available, make one. If oppressed from making one, force one. Improvise. Adapt. Overcome.
Individualist bullshit. The vast majority of humanity under your beloved capitalist system (that is, the third world) have zero chance of getting out of poverty. If capitalism is such a great system, then why hasn't it delivered all of humanity (or at least most of it) out of poverty?