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Klumpen0815: The thing is, that some people (like me) are also here to get old games DRM-free for their old systems.
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tammerwhisk: Which is a dying and unsustainable bracket.

What makes more sense? Keeping it so games work on newer OSs and hardware....ORRRR worrying about EOL OSs that eventually will be extinct (outside of VMs) when the last of the hardware that support them dies off.

Did you raise this big of stink about Windows 2.0 when Windows XP rolled around? Same rough year gap as between XP and 10.
The time differential is completely overshadowed by the difference in functionality, and you need to factor in both the positives *and* the negatives -- assuming you *want* to make a valid comparison.
Post edited June 14, 2017 by richlind33
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tammerwhisk: Which is a dying and unsustainable bracket.

What makes more sense? Keeping it so games work on newer OSs and hardware....ORRRR worrying about EOL OSs that eventually will be extinct (outside of VMs) when the last of the hardware that support them dies off.

Did you raise this big of stink about Windows 2.0 when Windows XP rolled around? Same rough year gap as between XP and 10.
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richlind33: The time differential is completely overshadowed by the difference in functionality, and you need to factor in both the positives *and* the negatives -- assuming you *want* to make a valid comparison.
15 years in tech is an eternity regardless of the decade.
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richlind33: The time differential is completely overshadowed by the difference in functionality, and you need to factor in both the positives *and* the negatives -- assuming you *want* to make a valid comparison.
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tammerwhisk: 15 years in tech is an eternity regardless of the decade.
Some "eternities" are a hell of a lot shorter than others. And some arguments are a hell of a lot weaker than others. o.O
Post edited June 14, 2017 by richlind33
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richlind33: [...] And some arguments are a hell of a lot weaker than others. o.O
yeah... i am still waiting for you to actually make one instead of insulting however you are addressing.
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richlind33: [...] And some arguments are a hell of a lot weaker than others. o.O
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amok: yeah... i am still waiting for you to actually make one instead of insulting whomever you are addressing.
Fix'd your post for you, m8.

You're welcome.
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Aemony: [...] And honestly, there's not a lot you can do about it either. The game requires these DLL files to function because they've been marked as essential at compile time. If GOG should add support for XP then they basically need to maintain a dummy DLL file of sorts that have been coded to implement all the functionality of the real DLL file, but with none of the actual behavior. This means not only maintaining a separate development chain but also provide branch support in their download clients and spend QA time to ensure that the DLL file doesn't break the game in any way.

Ergo, supporting it actually costs money. Money that the very small percentage of XP users don't cover.
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HypersomniacLive: I'm no coder, so don't quite understand why it can't be addressed with a "if... then... else" condition in that one and only .dll file, and requires instead a separate development chain and everything else you listed as a result of that. Note that I'm not referring specifically to Win XP, or GOG adding support for it, just making titles DRM-free without breaking whatever native compatibility an original release supported, with the full disclaimer that in the case of "else" one would get the DRM-free experience without any of the GOG Galaxy features.
Because if I understand the reason for the incompatibility to begin with then it's more underlying that that. Microsoft have done a ton of architectural changes over the years. Because of this just the mere act of using Microsoft's modern compilers (which turn readable code into machine code) adds dependencies on these architectural changes. Those changes have been backported into Windows 7, 8.x and various Server operating systems, but not to XP and Vista due to their end-of-life support having expired.

For example, that solution of yours would most likely not even work since it still requires that the DLL file can be read and executed, which it can't on unsupported operating systems that can't handle the new dependencies.

As I previously mentioned there's ways around the issue, but all of those comes with a cost that simply doesn't pay for itself.

For example, we can assume that all GOG developers uses modern tools, right? However Fallout: New Vegas isn't a modern game, is it? So even if they attempt to change the source code of the game (which they must do to convert the Steam functionality into Galaxy functionality) then they most likely must import the codebase into a modern toolkit that it simply weren't designed for, which means changes will occur simply by the act of importing it.

The codebase was probably built using an older version of the Windows SDK, of which there's compatibility caveats of having multiple versions installed of (not to mention that few modern development tools are even tested or officially support outdated legacy SDKs). Hell, it's even built using DirectX 9, which is a part of the legacy DirectX SDK which haven't received an update since 2010 (and is therefor not officially supported on Windows 10 either).

The game and the source code for it is simply old. "Supporting" it fully without adding additional dependencies requires that all the development, compiling and testing are done on machines that match the original dependencies of the codebase. Then they also need to test it thoroughly on modern software to ensure that the old dependencies doesn't break anything. And even then they're at the mercy of Microsoft's whims, who can at any moment release another Windows 10 update that might break some of that old dependencies.

Old games that simply needs a wrapper or emulator around it (DOSBox, dgVoodoo, etc) is "simple" to fix since the actual source itself is untouched. But games that originally was built with other integrations (such as the Steam API in this case) either requires an excessively amount of time to reverse engineer the Steam API and implement a wrapper for it that translates inbetween Galaxy and the game (and even then we have the DLL incompatibility issue if the DLL file were compiled with a modern toolkit) or it requires actual changes in the source code of the game, and a recompile of the game itself, which will most likely mean modern tools aka modern dependencies.

There's no simple solution here. It's a highly complex issue that any solution of will have a cost attached to it. The most cheap option is to simply not support those OSes any longer, and therefor not even care about them when translating the game into being playable on modern hardware with modern features (Galaxy integration).
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Aemony: Old games that simply needs a wrapper or emulator around it (DOSBox, dgVoodoo, etc) is "simple" to fix since the actual source itself is untouched. But games that originally was built with other integrations (such as the Steam API in this case) either requires an excessively amount of time to reverse engineer the Steam API and implement a wrapper for it that translates inbetween Galaxy and the game (and even then we have the DLL incompatibility issue if the DLL file were compiled with a modern toolkit) or it requires actual changes in the source code of the game, and a recompile of the game itself, which will most likely mean modern tools aka modern dependencies.

There's no simple solution here. It's a highly complex issue that any solution of will have a cost attached to it. The most cheap option is to simply not support those OSes any longer, and therefor not even care about them when translating the game into being playable on modern hardware with modern features (Galaxy integration).
That's simply not true. The workaround is extremely simple, and the only thing stopping GOG from implementing it is GOG.
At the very least they could provide the replacement file and instructions. And you know what? It would be great PR that would encourage loyalty going forward.
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Aemony: Old games that simply needs a wrapper or emulator around it (DOSBox, dgVoodoo, etc) is "simple" to fix since the actual source itself is untouched. But games that originally was built with other integrations (such as the Steam API in this case) either requires an excessively amount of time to reverse engineer the Steam API and implement a wrapper for it that translates inbetween Galaxy and the game (and even then we have the DLL incompatibility issue if the DLL file were compiled with a modern toolkit) or it requires actual changes in the source code of the game, and a recompile of the game itself, which will most likely mean modern tools aka modern dependencies.

There's no simple solution here. It's a highly complex issue that any solution of will have a cost attached to it. The most cheap option is to simply not support those OSes any longer, and therefor not even care about them when translating the game into being playable on modern hardware with modern features (Galaxy integration).
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richlind33: That's simply not true. The workaround is extremely simple, and the only thing stopping GOG from implementing it is GOG.
At the very least they could provide the replacement file and instructions. And you know what? It would be great PR that would encourage loyalty going forward.
You are speaking from the perspective of a third-party with absolutely no responsibility at all. See my previous post on this matter.

The community can provide unofficial fixes however they want with no warranty or guarantee attached to them. GOG can not. That "extremely simple workaround" you speak of haven't gone through GOG's quality assurance testing at all, so there's no telling what issues it might cause with the game. If GOG would be providing it as a fix then they would basically be taking responsibility for it as well, including whatever issues it might cause for their end-users.

That's the whole gist of my posts. Stop seeing this issue as a random unattached idiot online and start seeing it from a business perspective with all that it entails (QA testing, support, responsibility, continuous development etc). Either do that or I'm going to assume I'm wasting my time discussing with a kid with no knowledge or experience of how the real world and consumer <-> corporation relationships work all across the world.
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HereForTheBeer: It wouldn't be an issue if older versions of the installers - versions that ran fine under XP - were made available to the customers. The old installers exist. Allow access with the caveat that gOg Support can't help with game issues under XP.
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amok: not for this game in question, this is the first version on gOg, with the DLL which does not work on XP
Speaking on the broader issue to which the thread sort of morphed into. I should have stated that so as not to confuse the two issues: the specific game in question, and the broader matter of continuing support for running games on an older OS, just as they were sold by the store originally.
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HereForTheBeer: It wouldn't be an issue if older versions of the installers - versions that ran fine under XP - were made available to the customers. The old installers exist. Allow access with the caveat that gOg Support can't help with game issues under XP.
This. I too am relying on my XP machine to play games I purchased on GOG when they were promised to work on that OS. If via update XP compatibility gets broken, older versions available would solve that issue. I cannot fathom why GOG doesn't offer these.
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HereForTheBeer: It wouldn't be an issue if older versions of the installers - versions that ran fine under XP - were made available to the customers. The old installers exist. Allow access with the caveat that gOg Support can't help with game issues under XP.
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chevkoch: This. I too am relying on my XP machine to play games I purchased on GOG when they were promised to work on that OS. If via update XP compatibility gets broken, older versions available would solve that issue. I cannot fathom why GOG doesn't offer these.
It'd be handy just in general, for all games and customers. Would be a customer-friendly move that could generate a fair bit of goodwill.
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chevkoch: This. I too am relying on my XP machine to play games I purchased on GOG when they were promised to work on that OS. If via update XP compatibility gets broken, older versions available would solve that issue. I cannot fathom why GOG doesn't offer these.
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HereForTheBeer: It'd be handy just in general, for all games and customers. Would be a customer-friendly move that could generate a fair bit of goodwill.
Absolutely. I know it would put my mind at ease and it wouldn't GOG cost anything much, since - like you already pointed out - the old installers exist.

As it stands I'm seriously pondering making my last few purchases, downloading all my games and be done with buying on here.
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HereForTheBeer: It'd be handy just in general, for all games and customers. Would be a customer-friendly move that could generate a fair bit of goodwill.
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chevkoch: Absolutely. I know it would put my mind at ease and it wouldn't GOG cost anything much, since - like you already pointed out - the old installers exist.

As it stands I'm seriously pondering making my last few purchases, downloading all my games and be done with buying on here.
Just because you want to keep using an OS that is far past its prime does not mean others want to support it. XP had its day in the sun. I hope if you are using XP you are keeping it off any network.
Would you expect Linux distros that have not used Kernel 2.0.x in years to still be serviced or for applications to still work on them? It sounds like you are wanting to take your ball and go home. I say just voice your request like so many others do and stop trying to have the attitude "It should be my way or I will hold my breath". It is up to you of course. :-)

-Tastymonkey
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richlind33: That's simply not true. The workaround is extremely simple, and the only thing stopping GOG from implementing it is GOG.
At the very least they could provide the replacement file and instructions. And you know what? It would be great PR that would encourage loyalty going forward.
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Aemony: You are speaking from the perspective of a third-party with absolutely no responsibility at all. See my previous post on this matter.

The community can provide unofficial fixes however they want with no warranty or guarantee attached to them. GOG can not. That "extremely simple workaround" you speak of haven't gone through GOG's quality assurance testing at all, so there's no telling what issues it might cause with the game. If GOG would be providing it as a fix then they would basically be taking responsibility for it as well, including whatever issues it might cause for their end-users.

That's the whole gist of my posts. Stop seeing this issue as a random unattached idiot online and start seeing it from a business perspective with all that it entails (QA testing, support, responsibility, continuous development etc). Either do that or I'm going to assume I'm wasting my time discussing with a kid with no knowledge or experience of how the real world and consumer <-> corporation relationships work all across the world.
I couldn't do that without compromising my integrity, which I refuse to do. The "business" perspective of the leet corporations is amoral. I've argued economics for 25 or so years, and run into more than a few who acknowledged that straightaway. It's part and parcel of materialism, and in that world, property takes precedence over people, which I find ghastly and offensive. I know *exactly* how the real world works, and consciously choose to deal with it on *my* terms, rather than it's own.

That said, what you claim is again false. GOG could provide the workaround without accepting responsibility by means of a disclaimer. End of.
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Aemony: You are speaking from the perspective of a third-party with absolutely no responsibility at all. See my previous post on this matter.

The community can provide unofficial fixes however they want with no warranty or guarantee attached to them. GOG can not. That "extremely simple workaround" you speak of haven't gone through GOG's quality assurance testing at all, so there's no telling what issues it might cause with the game. If GOG would be providing it as a fix then they would basically be taking responsibility for it as well, including whatever issues it might cause for their end-users.

That's the whole gist of my posts. Stop seeing this issue as a random unattached idiot online and start seeing it from a business perspective with all that it entails (QA testing, support, responsibility, continuous development etc). Either do that or I'm going to assume I'm wasting my time discussing with a kid with no knowledge or experience of how the real world and consumer <-> corporation relationships work all across the world.
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richlind33: I couldn't do that without compromising my integrity, which I refuse to do. The "business" perspective of the leet corporations is amoral. I've argued economics for 25 or so years, and run into more than a few who acknowledged that straightaway. It's part and parcel of materialism, and in that world, property takes precedence over people, which I find ghastly and offensive. I know *exactly* how the real world works, and consciously choose to deal with it on *my* terms, rather than it's own.

That said, what you claim is again false. GOG could provide the workaround without accepting responsibility by means of a disclaimer. End of.
You realize capitalism and consumerism are what make the 'gaming industry' even possible right? Seems kinda foolish to dig your heels in "on principle"... when you are focusing on frivilous entertainment products made possible by the system you vehemently despise.