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mechmouse: Most of those people quote that long deleted post from long forgotten forum on a server that no longer exists, that a friend of a friend once saw a screen shot of, where Gabe promises to make all Steam games DRM free in the event Valve collapses.

Its a fairy tale Steam users tell themselves.

The post was never legally binding, it never could be, and yet a month won't go by without someone trying to use it.
Fascinating read: https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/1711816076697921219/

Some are aware of their eventual fate (I'll give it to them, it takes a certain kind of cold bravery to simply acknowledge the unpleasant facts of the path you're walking and accept them... a lot of people are not capable of that), but there is also lots of delusion.

Some talk about Gaby, their appointed dictator for life and how he owns 50%+ of steam and surely, Gaby got their back.

There are those that believe Steam will last Forever (comparing the end of Steam to some apocalyptic event like the end of the universe). Others think that if Steam goes, the gaming industry will collapse. Others yet, believe that people's outrage will be so great that they'll somewhat have to do something about it.

There is even a guy that thinks that because EULAs specify that its a license, we should just accept transience in something we bought and roll over.

This is human nature 101.

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mrkgnao: Of course I do. It goes without saying.

And they don't have "to constantly go through the whole GOG library". All they have to do is write a program (once) that compares GOG's build dates to those found on SteamDB (would probably take an experienced programmer a few days to write such a program from scratch), run it once a day or so, and send an alert to some GOG staff member if a game exceeds some predefined thresholds.

Like any software, it will require some regular maintenance, but not a lot.

P.S. I also expect my supermarket to remove out-of-date products from their shelves (or at least mark it with a clear warning).
This looks nice on paper, but I believe GOG is a fairly small operations and based on my experience working in those, there is A LOT of things that makes A LOT of sense on paper, but that you simply do not have the time to do. You got to prioritize all the time and a lot of things that people will lament are not there will get pushed further into the future.

And that's even in the ideal situation where perfect decisions get made all the time. In reality, people are not perfect geniuses (both at the business and technical end of things) and make some mistakes and business needs shift and some time gets wasted for that.

That's life in small companies and it can be infuriating if you are a perfectionist (and I get it, I'm a devops, I just want to automate everything and remove all manual operations in persistent networked systems to reach greater reliability and save time, but it is a neverending task and things could always be just a little better).
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Magnitus: This looks nice on paper, but I believe GOG is a fairly small operations and based on my experience working in those, there is A LOT of things that makes A LOT of sense on paper, but that you simply do not have the time to do. You got to prioritize all the time and a lot of things that people will lament are not there will get pushed further into the future.

And that's even in the ideal situation where perfect decisions get made all the time. In reality, people are not perfect geniuses (both at the business and technical end of things) and make some mistakes and business needs shift and some time gets wasted for that.

That's life in small companies and it can be infuriating if you are a perfectionist (and I get it, I'm a devops, I just want to automate everything and remove all manual operations in persistent networked systems to reach greater reliability and save time, but it is a neverending task and things could always be just a little better).
I agree with most everything you wrote, but that doesn't mean I don't expect them to do it.

Mind you, I don't think they will ever do it, but because I expect them to do it, I consider them lacking for not doing it.

And it has nothing to do with perfectionism or with being small. It has to do with basic service. There are loads of things that I consider less important than this that they are investing manpower into. They could have shifted their priorities if they cared enough about these things, but they don't.
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mrkgnao: And it has nothing to do with perfectionism or with being small. It has to do with basic service. There are loads of things that I consider less important than this that they are investing manpower into. They could have shifted their priorities if they cared enough about these things, but they don't.
That is a fair accusation. They do seem to have invested a lot more energy into their galaxy client than maintaining well their offline installers.

And while it may even make sense from a business perspective (for example, while I can't say I understand it, a lot of the player base seems to care a whole lot more about achievements than I do), it is a neglect of the original customer-base that helped make them relevant in the first place.
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Magnitus: That is a fair accusation. They do seem to have invested a lot more energy into their galaxy client than maintaining well their offline installers.
Actually the offline installers are now generated when the publisher uploads a new version of the game, it's all automated by now. It generates a new standalone installer and patches for previous versions, there is not more "maintaining". The partner has to press a button and that's it.

https://docs.gog.com/bc-quick-start/


What I do NOT like is how languages are managed in some games. For Cyberpunk ALL possible languages are put in ONE installer, which makes the installer by far bigger than the installed game. Having one installer for every language is of course not an option for those who want to collect everything. An alternative would be english installers with language patches, but I don't think we will get there very soon.
Post edited September 22, 2021 by neumi5694
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neumi5694: Actually the offline installers are now generated when the publisher uploads a new version of the game, it's all automated by now. It generates a new standalone installer and patches for previous versions, there is not more "maintaining". The partner has to press a button and that's it.

https://docs.gog.com/bc-quick-start/
Thanks for that bit of info. I was unaware. Comparing this to what I heard previously, it seems like they have made a lot of progress automating offline installer maintenance indeed.
Post edited September 22, 2021 by Magnitus
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timppu: Or are some of you really expecting GOG staff to constantly go through the whole GOG library, and somehow cross-check to the same games on e.g. Steam and EGS, whether they have version parity?
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mrkgnao: Of course I do. It goes without saying.
Then you are expecting more from them than e.g. from Valve or Epic Games, who most probably don't go through the trouble of doing such parity check on their stores, except in exceptional cases.

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mrkgnao: And they don't have "to constantly go through the whole GOG library". All they have to do is write a program (once) that compares GOG's build dates to those found on SteamDB
Is the version numbering that the publishers use in different stores always the same and in a similar format, so that a program can detect when there is an actual difference?

For that to work, the version numbering scheme should be fully standardized, across several different stores and all the publishers. I've seen different version numbering schemes used even between the Galaxy and offline installer versions of games. in GOG alone...

Wouldn't be the first time that something simple that "an experienced programmer can write in a few days from scratch" turns out to be something completely different. Like how at our work we were supposed to automatize all the Linux server updates with e.g. Ansible, sure no problem... ooops, all kinds of freaky manual database switchover or very delicate load balancing or "this and this service needs to be started manually after reboot" or "gitlab-ce must be upgraded in several parts if the major version changes, and sometimes there are additional scripts that need to be run too to convert databases to new format" etc. exceptions here and there, making it impossible to do it just like that. It sounded simple at first, just run sudo yum update or sudo apt update && sudo apt full-upgrade && sudo apt autoremove, and reboot the machine... Easy peasy, lemon squezy, right?

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mrkgnao: Like any software, it will require some regular maintenance, but not a lot.
Sure it won't, which is why I am still mostly updating Linux servers manually...

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mrkgnao: P.S. I also expect my supermarket to remove out-of-date products from their shelves (or at least mark it with a clear warning).
The difference being that
a) all supermarkets have to do the same work
b) the date format in products is standardized, all products and all stores use the same format.
c) there is no additional work needed to decipher whether it is ok to sell a product after it is out-of-date, like with game updates it may be the update is not even relevant to GOG. If the date is past already, then out it goes.

A better analogy would be that you are expecting supermarket GOG to keep constantly checking whether they have exactly the same amount of different products in their inventory, as their competitors supermarket Steam and supermarket Epic, who never do similar checking towards other supermarkets.

EDIT: Also don't forget that it is not only about checking whether version numbers are the same. A separate parity check would also be needed e.g. whether to GOG version has received all the same DLCs, soundtracks etc. as the versions on other stores. Can your simple "parity check program" do all that too, automatically?
Post edited September 22, 2021 by timppu
I don't understand one thing: why the problem of this game has been solved in a very short time, at least in theory since we are still waiting for the update, while the other hundreds of problems, some even much more serious, are completely ignored? Do we have to create a thread for each of those games, attract a few hundred comments from outraged users, and then maybe something moves?
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Magnitus: Thanks for that bit of info. I was unaware. Comparing this to what I heard previously, it seems like they have made a lot of progress automating offline installer maintenance indeed.
Most definitly, yes. Also the process of uploading new builds has become a lot easier. As far as I can tell, devs really have no reason to complain anymore.
However ... I don't have access to it, the whole thing might be crap anyway. But since most devs are able to release patches, I guess it works just fine.
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mechmouse: Most of those people quote that long deleted post from long forgotten forum on a server that no longer exists, that a friend of a friend once saw a screen shot of, where Gabe promises to make all Steam games DRM free in the event Valve collapses.

Its a fairy tale Steam users tell themselves.

The post was never legally binding, it never could be, and yet a month won't go by without someone trying to use it.
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Magnitus: Fascinating read: https://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/0/1711816076697921219/
I remember seeing that a while ago, wanted to reply, but I'm banned from the main Steam Community forums. The mods took exception at me calling out they were hiding unpopular topics (mostly that SFS was useless) in the "Hints and Tips" forum when they were in fact hiding unpopular topics in the "Hints and Tips" forum.
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Magnitus: That is a fair accusation. They do seem to have invested a lot more energy into their galaxy client than maintaining well their offline installers.
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neumi5694: Actually the offline installers are now generated when the publisher uploads a new version of the game, it's all automated by now. It generates a new standalone installer and patches for previous versions, there is not more "maintaining". The partner has to press a button and that's it.
What do you mean by "now"? Since when? Because I can still see games from two weeks ago or a month ago that are different between galaxy and offline. And I haven't seen any recent change, except things getting slightly worse.

Do you base your claim on some specific inside knowledge? Or is it just something GOG said?

See here (taking into account the list is updated only once a week, so the recent 30 or so entries are as yet irrelevant):
https://airtable.com/shrldLsErlUf3eHqS/tbltXjS8fxEGG11eD
Post edited September 22, 2021 by mrkgnao
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timppu: Then you are expecting more from them than e.g. from Valve or Epic Games, who most probably don't go through the trouble of doing such parity check on their stores, except in exceptional cases.
I don't know Epic, so can't comment. As for Steam, I do expect the same from them.

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mrkgnao: And they don't have "to constantly go through the whole GOG library". All they have to do is write a program (once) that compares GOG's build dates to those found on SteamDB
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timppu: Is the version numbering that the publishers use in different stores always the same and in a similar format, so that a program can detect when there is an actual difference?

For that to work, the version numbering scheme should be fully standardized, across several different stores and all the publishers. I've seen different version numbering schemes used even between the Galaxy and offline installer versions of games. in GOG alone...
As you'll see in my post, nowhere did I mention version numbers. I said "dates".

And yes, there will be some discrepancies. I think, say, 10% false positives/negatives is better than 100% nothing.
Post edited September 22, 2021 by mrkgnao
Automation takes time, money and effort and often all too soon needs an update in many cases. Then there are the parity issues mentioned.

GOG of course have other priorities and seem to cut back in costs wherever they can. Hell, they don't even really support Linux, and that must cost them a few sales.

There are lots of things we all wish GOG did, but even amongst ourselves we would have differing priorities.

It stinks when updates are missing from GOG or slow when it comes to Offline Installers ... though that last appears to be improving. It's even worse when it is a vital bugfix.

Worst of all though, are abandoned games, that are incomplete in some way. And honestly, I suspect most are deliberate and just a way for the DEV/PUB to bring in more money, when desperados here switch to buying a better version of the game again at Steam. There really should be a penalty for that written into the contract, including reimbursement to buyers at GOG. Who cares if that keeps those providers away from GOG, as we don't really want them abusing the system anyway ... we are better off without them in that scenario. I'm sure some just see a release at GOG as some sort of demo (promotional thing), that we suckers have to pay for. EDIT - When you think about it, they haven't really released their full game here DRM-Free, so a con job ... a pretense that they support GOG.
Post edited September 22, 2021 by Timboli
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Timboli: Automation takes time, money and effort and often all too soon needs an update in many cases. Then there are the parity issues mentioned.

GOG of course have other priorities and seem to cut back in costs wherever they can. Hell, they don't even really support Linux, and that must cost them a few sales.

There are lots of things we all wish GOG did, but even amongst ourselves we would have differing priorities.

It stinks when updates are missing from GOG or slow when it comes to Offline Installers ... though that last appears to be improving. It's even worse when it is a vital bugfix.

Worst of all though, are abandoned games, that are incomplete in some way. And honestly, I suspect most are deliberate and just a way for the DEV/PUB to bring in more money, when desperados here switch to buying a better version of the game again on Steam. There really should be a penalty for that written into the contract, including reimbursement to buyers at GOG. Who cares if that keeps those providers away from GOG, as we don't really want them abusing the system anyway ... we are better off without them in that scenario. I'm sure some just see a release at GOG as some sort of demo, that we suckers have to pay for.
I agree, and I accept that GOG has a different set of priorities. But there's a big difference between that and implying that it is somehow outlandish to expect them to do it.
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mrkgnao: I agree, and I accept that GOG has a different set of priorities. But there's a big difference between that and implying that it is somehow outlandish to expect them to do it.
Yeah, is is a difficult one though.

I don't think most are outlandish, just so difficult that they are unrealistic in the circumstances.

GOG, it seems to me, either cut a few corners when they started or have done so now and then along the way. Playing catch-up to fix those things, is no doubt fodder for the too hard basket now.

At least we still have GOG, which is still something good to my mind, if not as good as it could be, or as good as we wish it was.
Post edited September 22, 2021 by Timboli
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Alexim: I don't understand one thing: why the problem of this game has been solved in a very short time, at least in theory since we are still waiting for the update, while the other hundreds of problems, some even much more serious, are completely ignored? Do we have to create a thread for each of those games, attract a few hundred comments from outraged users, and then maybe something moves?
Yes, Alexim - that's unfortunately and obviously the GOG way. I am glad and thankful that they helped here and that they might help with future problems that might come to their attention in a similar way but as you can see in the lack of feedback about the general problem at hand - we should not expect them to act on their own.
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mrkgnao: What do you mean by "now"? Since when? Because I can still see games from two weeks ago or a month ago that are different between galaxy and offline. And I haven't seen any recent change, except things getting slightly worse.
In theory creating offline installers ahould happen automatically just like neumi5694 said, however for this to happen the process has to work correctly and iirc those updated games have to be marked. It has been ages since someone from GOG staff (don't remember anymore who exactly) told me that it has happened that this marking did not happen correctly or not at all and therefore the process of creating those installers automatically simply did not start. The moment people told GOG about them they started the creation process manually. Not sure if this still is the case though - but it sounds logical to me that this might be one source of the underlying problem regarding offline installer being outdated in comparision to Galaxy updates.
Post edited October 02, 2021 by MarkoH01