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ddickinson: Nobody likes a cannibal ;-)
Cannibal Lives Matter
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Sage103082: snip....

@Robb - Why did you claim at the time you did and not as soon as we came back for night?
I think you'll find it was my first post after the nights results were revealed. I don't monitor the thread every minute of the day, so sometimes have a lot to catch up on at once.

I read the results, and immediately wrote out my claim post. I know most people will not believe this, but I didn't know HijacK had mentioned something about Twilights death before I posted. If you reread my claim post , you'll see I make no mention of Hijacks post.

Anyway - I'm still amazed that everyone believes both Yog and CSPVG. You DO all realise that BOTH have claimed COP, but not only that, both have claimed IDENTICAL role COPS . AND - both have survived the night.

Until proven otherwise I will not be trusting a word either of them say - Yog was conveniently blocked overnight , so no danger to himself over slipping up, and CSPVG gave us a reading on Lifthrasil.

I know we have role madness game, but two identical roles?? I think not. We are agonising over whether a lynch will reveal anything, or what we can do. We have to be brave, or we are doomed. Mafia is clever - with limited reveals, a Cop is one of the better roles to falseclaim. Plus it makes the rest of us less willing to lynch.

As stated , if we picked the false cop and lynched, I think we go a long way to winning this thing.

Yog - and only Yog please, noone else answer.... what does your PM say about the size of your job, if anything?
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adaliabooks: My point was more that Dedo shooting someone N1 with his power, just to use it before he got NK, wasn't a very townie action. Just like Robb standing on guard wasn't. I don't think it's a sign that he is scum, just that he was over eager to use his power. It may not even be a bad thing, we don't know if Twilight is town or scum yet.
You seem to forget one important aspect. This was my first game ever and my first action and first power role ever. We started the game with 2 Townies dead on day 1 and some suspicion was thrown on Robbeasy (books neglected to mention that Robb was my vigilante victim back then and afterwards he did share he wasn't too fond I the way I played this out).

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trentonlf: The whole idea of lynching Robb today as a last minute fall back does not sit well with me either.
Really? Fair enough. And what would you prefer to do if we do end up needing a last minute fallback with nothing to go on? A shot in the dark? No lynch? I kind of doubt it.

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trentonlf: I questioned him early on with the slip he made with using "they" when referring to town instead of "us".
I was wondering if this will come up again. Again, I find it funny how a bunch of people jumped on me for my supposed "slip" three games in, but some of the same people pointed out a brand new player making the same mistake and then discarding it after she said "you are seeing something that it's not there". Good stuff.

All in all, Trent, you said you was my actions as pro town after the initial situation we had, you said you believe Lifthrasil looks like townie who actively scum hunts given we are the two people who gave Robbeasy the most pressure and yet you came back voting for me in the end. I'm starting to wonder if there is a patter there.



Off topic:

I'm facing major technical problem with my laptop and I'm afraid there is possibility it will critically fail at some point. I something like this happens during the holidays I may not be able to participate often enough and may have to ask for replacement. I will make sure to notify everyone here prior if this happens.

On similar note the holidays are around the corner. I don't know about the availability of others but even if I manage to overcome my hardware problems I will not be able to pay too much attention to the game during this period.
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trentonlf: 9. DDickson, I'm not sure if it's first game jitters or not, but I get a feeling she is trying too hard to seem town. She has not made any major slips that have painted her as scummy, but the overall feeling I get with her posts is someone trying too hard to be town so I find her to be leaning scum.
I'm curious to know what I have said that makes me appear like I am trying too hard to be Town? I know you might not want to say during the game (if you think I am leaning towards Scum, you would hardly give me hints to appear less Scummy), but maybe after the game you can let me know, just to satisfy my curiosity.


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Sage103082: The thing is that PGO is a claim that can easily be scum trying to hide in plan sight but it can also be Robbs true role and he may not be hiding anything and completely truthful.
I think that's why adaliabooks' suggestion makes sense. I'm not saying we should drop the whole thing against Robbeasy but we should spend some time looking for the second killer, or Scum players in general. As you said, Robbeasy's argument could easily be true, but it could also be a lie, and I don't think we can find out the truth without trying to test the theory, so just going over the whole thing again and again and nothing else is somewhat counter-productive.

Feel free not to answer this, especially if it would give too much away, but would your role explain why you were in the diner? Or was it simply part of the story? It's not a big issue, I was just curious.

I'm also wondering why DarkoD13's body would be disposed of like that. Perhaps either to hide how he was killed, or maybe another Serial Killer, or similar type character who would enjoy doing it. I can't really see it as a Mafia kill (although I'm not ruling it out), why would they go to all that effort? Even if his body would have told us how he died (shot, stabbed, drowned, death by chocolate, etc.), it would do little good at the moment without more to go on.
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ddickinson: I'm also wondering why DarkoD13's body would be disposed of like that. Perhaps either to hide how he was killed, or maybe another Serial Killer, or similar type character who would enjoy doing it. I can't really see it as a Mafia kill (although I'm not ruling it out), why would they go to all that effort? Even if his body would have told us how he died (shot, stabbed, drowned, death by chocolate, etc.), it would do little good at the moment without more to go on.
I was going to say we probably shouldn't read too much into how the kills took place as I don't think it would be relevant, however if the flavour in RWarehall's lynch post was a confirmation of his restrictor role (rather than just a rewrite of how the day went down) then maybe there is something to learn from the flavour...
And the one thing that comes to mind for me is that in the High School game Krypysn gave very elaborate descriptions of the NKs, which it turned out at the end had been donated by trent (who was a Mafia Strongarm and had been performing said kills).
I just wonder whether we might be seeing his sick (sorry trent :P) mind at work again?
I have been getting vaguely scummy vibes from him this game, just seems a bit less engaged than in previous games... But I'm finding it quite hard to get a read on a lot of the players this time round so I'm not entirely trusting of that instinct.

Just might be something to consider...
I’ve been re-reading through the posts since the start of day 2. Some of my impressions:

If Robbeasy’s claim is fake, is it possible he is a Janitor? Robb both killed TW and covered up his flip. Am I reading this role wrong?

Having said that, I noticed something that gives Robb’s claim of PGO more credibility in my estimation:

I’m not certain how much time passed, but there are only 18 posts between Hijack’s revelation that he knew something (post #1320) and Robbeasy’s claim as PGO (#1338). If Robbeasy is faking the claim he included a lot of detail (a flavor appropriate name, number of shots, flavor in the claim) that flows well together, while being under pressure to fake a claim (in what I assume is a relatively short amount of time). If you see merit in this, it does not necessarily help confirm that the PGO is for town. The wiki indicates a mob PGO is unlikely, but anything is possible. Having limited shots helps balance the power. Thinking on my feet is a struggle for me, perhaps I'm giving Robb too much credit.

Robbeasy leans slightly towards town for me.

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Robbeasy: In fact we'll never know, because I'm gonna be lynched today or tomorrow I would guess, and it would be suicide for anyone visiting me.
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HijacK: You know? I tend to believe your claim, but this strikes me as BS. I believe flub clearly stated we can ask him questions about our roles, so what exactly stops you from PMing him right now?
I agree. Robb should inquire with flubb about the parts of his role he is uncertain.

I’m not sure who else to lynch besides Robbeasy without more information or agreement otherwise by the deadline.

I continue to think CSPVG's looks scummy but to my count, at least 5 others are against this. I do not have additional concrete information about CSPVG, my reasoning is based on the arguments already presented. I have one speculation that has not been presented to my knowledge: when yogs first claimed, he mentioned the best case scenario would be to Follow the Cop . The wiki states that if a doctor is known to exist than “the optimal strategy for the Mafia is to counterclaim Cop and hope that they can get the real Cop lynched OR confuse the Doctor into protecting the false Cop while killing the real Cop at Night”. We did not know if a doctor existed. But if scum believed a doctor existed, this was the optimal strategy for them to take. CSPVG’s claim was not a 100% counter-claim, but it introduced the same confusion and doubt (if not more) that this move is intended to create.

I’d be willing to vote CSPVG if there was more consensus. My confidence level in this first game has not exceeded my threshold for risk yet.


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adaliabooks: …snip…
There is definitely a chance either or both of them are scum. But neither of them had any real pressure to make a claim or gained anything for scum by doing so. If CSPVG isn't a cop he either needs to keep feeding us accurate reads on townies to maintain the charade (or be lynched for being naive) or get lynched as soon as he gets one wrong. The only problem there is that we may or may not get flips so its hard to know. But the important point is, he didn't know that when he claimed.
I didn’t follow this. All CSPVG claims is whether or not someone is town, not the role. If CSPVG is scum and one mafia group remains, claiming someone is town is a no brainer, they know every townie (but not specific roles.) If more than one anti-town faction remains, who would argue with CSPVG if he claimed them as town (even if he was wrong)?

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dedoporno: This is my understanding as well, but I guess Jmich is referring to a potential double voter.
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JMich: That was not what I was talking about. Theory was that if hammer was from faction A, we get a flip, if hammer was from faction B, we don't. Now, with 11 votes, does the faction of the 10th or the 11th vote caster count for the flip? And if we do have a double voter, is the hammer or the last voter the one who determines the flip?
The idea of flips based on multiple factions is interesting. I hope it's not that complicated.
Does a double vote make sense in this case? Unless the double vote is from CSPVG, wouldn’t the vote have been sealed once 9 players voted, prior to CSPVG’s vote? Does a double voter get to choose when to use it? If CSPVG has the ability and can choose, it would not make sense to use it in this case either. This leaves CSPVG with a passive double vote.


@flub - Without a forth coming lynch from us, I assume this day last past Christmas?
I’m not certain how much internet access and time I’ll have the next several days.
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flubbucket: It is a standard to randomly assign roles. Anything else is tantamount to cheating the gaming experience. Here, for what it's worth, is the actual Random.org "roles" stat for giggles.
@flub One more question, out of curiosity, your list appears to randomize the numbers from 2 to 19 (instead of 1 to 18). Is there a benefit to skipping the number 1?
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JMich: Better yet, what is the scenario you believed happened? The question you keep avoiding.
I don't think I am. I think I said what might have happened. Twice. And I really don't understand what you mean beyond that. What are you aiming at? Why are you going on about the various roles? Again: I believe Robb might be scum and I have the impression, that his PGO claim was a reaction to HighjacK's announcement. I don't know what role Robb has, or HijacK and I don't know what Robb was thinking. I just do not ignore the possibility that he might be scum and I don't like the fact that you and adalia give him a 'carte blanche' just based on his claim. If he really is town, why did he have to be prodded by HijacK before claiming? Why not say, right after night, "Hey guys, I think know what happened with Twilight." If his role claiming was good play for town, why not do it without being forced to do it? No, his claim was definitely a reaction to HijacK's announcement - and if you want to know what Robb was thinking, you should ask him, not me.

And about your math: yes, the schance of being targeted by CSPVG weren't that big. But with so many power roles, the chance of being targeted by town were much higher than the chances of being targeted by scum. Sure, Robb may have submitted his night-action before being aware of this being a role-madnes game, as you assume.

Actually, that's a good question for Robb himself: were you aware that this is a role madness game, when you chose to stand guard?

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adaliabooks: All I'm going on now is Lift seems scummy as hell, and we all should be calling him on his reasoning. Like you are with me. I admit my vote on him is mostly down to feeling, I know it throws out established evidence from CSPVG, but unlike you I see no reason CSPVG couldn't be naive (or random).
And throwing out established evidence is such a towny thing to do, right?

Ah well, if you really believe that my pursuing of Robb is scummy, I have no problem with you voting on me. But please do explain why you are so sure that Robb is town.

Concerning CSPVG: we probably will have to wait if CSPVG gets a scum reading some time, to know, whether he's naive or not. I still think, that Robb and CSPVG are suspicious.


something different:
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ddickinson: ...
ddickinson raises a good point here. We have been completely ignoring the murder on our town coroner. And we should discuss the reason, why there are sometimes no flips. The janitor hypothesis, that JMich brought up, only fits if Robb is scum. Because if he really were a town PGO and Twilights death was therefore unforseen, a janitor would have had no idea that he would have to cover up Twilights death at night. He would more likely have chosen to clean up Darko. So a janitor only fits, if Twilight was a scum kill.

However, it is also possible that either only town generated kills don't lead to flips (that would be a hint that Robb is indead town) or it might be possible, that scum generally isn't flipped (that would mean Twilight was scum). But are there any other leads or flavour that might help decide, which no-flip scenario we have?
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ddickinson: [...] and try to to eat the food while you do it next time. Nobody likes a cannibal ;-)
I will try.


Have to run in a bit, but will try to catch up later today.
Is it possible that DarkoD13 was killed by a cannibal? I was curious about why he would be made into food and I had a look on the Mafia wiki and found some references to Scum cannibal roles.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Donner_Party
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cristigale: @flub - Without a forth coming lynch from us, I assume this day last past Christmas?
I’m not certain how much internet access and time I’ll have the next several days.
That is a safe assumption. One of the reasons I haven't put a End of Day Two timer in Post #2 is because of the holidays....and because that would be a bit too ornery even for me.

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cristigale: @flub One more question, out of curiosity, your list appears to randomize the numbers from 2 to 19 (instead of 1 to 18). Is there a benefit to skipping the number 1?
Yes.
Post edited December 23, 2014 by flubbucket
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Robbeasy: Yog - and only Yog please, noone else answer.... what does your PM say about the size of your job, if anything?
Haven't read past Robb's post yet, so just stopping to answer...

Size of my job? Hey baby, you want to see the size of my job?

No, seriously, I have no idea what you mean.
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JMich: Better yet, what is the scenario you believed happened? The question you keep avoiding.
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Lifthrasil: I don't think I am. I think I said what might have happened. Twice. And I really don't understand what you mean beyond that. What are you aiming at? Why are you going on about the various roles?
Quick reply for now.

Assumption 1) Robb is not PGO.
Assumption 2) HijacK knows who TwilightBard visited.
Fill in the rest of the story.
What is Robb?
How did Twilight die?
Why hasn't HijacK objected to Robb's version of the story?

Your answers so far are similar to
-"Let's eat pizza!."
-"No."
-"What shall we eat?"
-"Not pizza."
You do not give any alternate scenarios. Only that Robb must be lying. If Robb is a mafia goon who killed Twilight, then Robb will have visited Twilight, not the opposite. If Robb is scum that didn't have anything to do with Twilight's death, then no need to claim anything. So why claim? And why claim PGO?

As for the janitor hypothesis, that doesn't explain why we had no flip on RWarehall.

Back a bit later, I think I have another post to answer to.
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adaliabooks: All I'm going on now is Lift seems scummy as hell, and we all should be calling him on his reasoning. Like you are with me. I admit my vote on him is mostly down to feeling, I know it throws out established evidence from CSPVG, but unlike you I see no reason CSPVG couldn't be naive (or random).
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Lifthrasil: And throwing out established evidence is such a towny thing to do, right?

Ah well, if you really believe that my pursuing of Robb is scummy, I have no problem with you voting on me. But please do explain why you are so sure that Robb is town.

Concerning CSPVG: we probably will have to wait if CSPVG gets a scum reading some time, to know, whether he's naive or not. I still think, that Robb and CSPVG are suspicious.
Well it's only established if you fully believe CSPVG is a sane town cop, which you yourself don't seem to.

I'm not sure Robb is town, he is strongly leaning town for me. The question is why are you sure he's not?

Unfortunately that is the case with CSPVG, and yog for that matter.
I've caught up.

We're running in circles, as usual... well, worse than usual, of course, by design.

I think after Christmas, it's time to shut up with these running-around-in-circles arguments and start hashing out a vote. (Yeah, yeah, call me scummy for "rushing".) Newbies, stop being afraid of taking a stand and vote. When all votes are on the table, we'll bash it together.
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adaliabooks: Well it's only established if you fully believe CSPVG is a sane town cop, which you yourself don't seem to.

I'm not sure Robb is town, he is strongly leaning town for me. The question is why are you sure he's not?
I explained this several times: because he acted against town. If his role claim is true, his standing guard was a anti-town decision. And the fact that he claimed only after being more or less forced to do so by HighjacK doesn't look towny to me either. And keep in mind that even if his role claim is true, his affiliation with town is not guaranteed. Sure, PGO is more often town than scum, but both are possible. Or, even if he's not mafia, he still might be some other anti-town role (even normal PGO are often considered anti-town). So, I see two possibilities:
1) Robb's role claim is true and he is a PGO. In that case his actions and decisions were still anti-town and therefore I suspect him of being anti-town.
2) Robb's role claim is not true - in which case LAL.

Now it's your turn. Why do you see Robb 'strongly leaning town'? Up to now you only stated that you believe him town, but didn't really explain why.