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Hedwards is full of shit.

Squats, lunges, back extensions, and calf raises are all excellent motions for general fitnesa.

Keep the squats at or below lean body mass to reduce the risk of injury.

Deadlifts are great, but I reccomend 6 months+ of back extensions and then barbell good mornings before starting deadlifts, to properly build up lower back strength. If you feel confident deadlifting, it's one of two exercises tht work over 70% of your bodys muscles...the other being a squat.
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anjohl: Hedwards is full of shit.

Squats, lunges, back extensions, and calf raises are all excellent motions for general fitnesa.

Keep the squats at or below lean body mass to reduce the risk of injury.

Deadlifts are great, but I reccomend 6 months+ of back extensions and then barbell good mornings before starting deadlifts, to properly build up lower back strength. If you feel confident deadlifting, it's one of two exercises tht work over 70% of your bodys muscles...the other being a squat.
No, I'm not. I've had this argument with people in the past, and you're neglecting to factor in the load on the back from those exercise. You're also forgetting that the vast majority of people do squats incorrectly. The fitness manuals I've seen universally get it wrong leading to people placing more stress on the joints than is necessary.

There is no way of doing it which doesn't place load on the back, unless you're harnessing the weight directly to the hips.

And it's not one of only 2, you're forgetting about the snatch and catch which works basically 100% of the body's muscles. I'd like to try those some day, but finding somebody to teach the proper form can be tricky. Bridges also use more or less all the body as well. And don't forget about the plank. Sure it limits the strength to one position, as do bridges, but they definitely hit more than 70% of the muscle groups.

If you're going to try and correct me, at least be correct about what you're saying, otherwise you look like a jackass.
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lowyhong: What's your daily diet consist of, brah?
Today?

Protein Shake
Granola Bar
Organic Instant Oatmeal (I try to have steel cut, I just didn't have time today)
Apple
8 pretzels (or so)
pack of Famous Amos cookies
Massive carne asada and bean burrito from a taquieria down the street just now

If I get hungry later I'll eat a piece of toast with honey on it.

I'd normally eat more apples and the like but I ran out and didn't have time for the store today.
Could someone post some sources?
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lowyhong: I started training my lower body for the first time today, mainly with dumb bells - squats, calf raises and lunges. Anything else I should incorporate into this?
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hedwards: You should be doing fewer exercises. Just learn to do proper butt to the floor bodyweight squats and you shouldn't have to specifically exercise anything else.

There isn't any need to do any of those other exercises unless you're into body building. If you want actual functional strength, all you need is squats. Do yourself a favor though and start out with shoulderstand squats if you can, I hate them, but they do a good job of giving a good position from which to build.
Yeah that's not right.

Stick with what your doing lowyhong. If anyone ever again tells you again to stop using weights and do a single bodyweight exercise, I recommend you just smile and nod. Bodyweight exercises are good for upper body stuff (chin ups, dips, pushups, horizontal pull ups) but even there you will plateau quickly. For your lower body, bodyweight exercises won't do much beyond give you a cardio workout. If you're moderately active to begin with that is.

If your goal is to get a better body by building muscle, using weights will give you much faster and better results than bodyweight exercise.

Just add deadlifts to your routine:
-squat
-deadlift
-lunges
-calf raises

You definitely do not have to wait 6 months to deadlift. Just use light weights to start.

Form is important for squats and deadlifts so watch some videos online. Main safety concern is not rounding your lower back.
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gandhi1900: Yeah that's not right.

Stick with what your doing lowyhong. If anyone ever again tells you again to stop using weights and do a single bodyweight exercise, I recommend you just smile and nod. Bodyweight exercises are good for upper body stuff (chin ups, dips, pushups, horizontal pull ups) but even there you will plateau quickly. For your lower body, bodyweight exercises won't do much beyond give you a cardio workout. If you're moderately active to begin with that is.

If your goal is to get a better body by building muscle, using weights will give you much faster and better results than bodyweight exercise.
I'm sorry, but you're completely misinformed on the matter. The point here is that you clearly don't know anything about bodyweight work outs if you're taking that stance. Unless you can pump out full sets of butt to the the calf one legged squats, you are in no position to claim that bodyweight squats aren't hard enough. As there's still plenty of room for you to get more challenging exercises in. At 200lbs., doing a one legged squat is probably equivalent to squatting 300lbs., or there abouts and somewhat harder as I'd also have to be balancing the weight, anybody that claims they need to squat more is probably taking vitamin S or is completely out of touch with what they need to do.

Very, few people ever get to the point where they can do one set of one legged body weight squats, so to suggest that it's not hard enough or not enough weight is indicative of fitness industry incompetence. Bodyweight squats don't wreck your back, barbell squats with hundreds of pounds can very easily wreck all sorts of things if you aren't careful.

The reason you get slower results with bodyweight work outs is because you're building pretty much everything out at a similar rate. Yes, it does take longer, but the results are better. Working out with weights based upon the asinine advice available from most experts is just going to get you hurt in the long run.

I used to work out with weights, I don't any longer because quite frankly, I don't need a false sense of strength that comes from being out of balance or to spend hours of my time working to make sure that whatever minor muscle group I'm missing out on is strong enough.

I hear people bashing bodyweight exercises, none of whom actually know what they're talking about. I've done my time in the gym with weights, and I've gotten better results the less technology I use.

But, yes, obviously I'm full of it because I'm not towing the industry line. Makes you wonder how anybody got strong in the millenia before freeweights and machines were invented.
Sources?
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lowyhong: I started training my lower body for the first time today, mainly with dumb bells - squats, calf raises and lunges. Anything else I should incorporate into this?
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hedwards: You should be doing fewer exercises. Just learn to do proper butt to the floor bodyweight squats and you shouldn't have to specifically exercise anything else.

There isn't any need to do any of those other exercises unless you're into body building. If you want actual functional strength, all you need is squats. Do yourself a favor though and start out with shoulderstand squats if you can, I hate them, but they do a good job of giving a good position from which to build.
Sources?
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hedwards: Unless you can pump out full sets of butt to the the calf one legged squats, you are in no position to claim that bodyweight squats aren't hard enough. As there's still plenty of room for you to get more challenging exercises in. At 200lbs., doing a one legged squat is probably equivalent to squatting 300lbs.,
A couple of points on single leg squats:
- Yes I can do a full set. I only do them for balance and I weigh more than you.
- If you weigh 200lbs and only do single leg squats I'd be impressed if you could properly rep out a 300lb squat. I don't see how your lower back would be developed enough to handle the weight.
- A beginner will see much faster progress with traditional squats because they can continuously put on weight. The jump from a bodyweight squat to a single leg is large so the beginner has to do awkward assisted single legs and can't measure how much help theyre using each time.

A bigger problem with bodyweight exercises is that there is no equivalent for deadlifting. If your goal is functional strength deadlifting is one of the best exercises you can do.

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hedwards: The reason you get slower results with bodyweight work outs is because you're building pretty much everything out at a similar rate.
I'm pretty sure you can workout your muscles at a similar rate with weights. I'd argue that it is much easier because you can select how much weight to use for each exercise. You're not stuck with bodyweight and bodyweight + assistance.

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hedwards: Yes, it does take longer, but the results are better.
How is it better? It sounds like you're just fundamentally opposed to weighlifting. The simple fact is that it is easier to get stronger and look better with the use of weights.

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hedwards: I used to work out with weights, I don't any longer because quite frankly, I don't need a false sense of strength that comes from being out of balance...
Again, no idea what this means. False sense of strength? I can assure you that I am stronger than you in a very real sense.

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hedwards: But, yes, obviously I'm full of it because I'm not towing the industry line. Makes you wonder how anybody got strong in the millenia before freeweights and machines were invented.
Do you seriously think they got strong doing one legged squats? Or did they get strong from moving shit with physical labour?
I would like sources from both posters above. Because all I am reading atm is generalities and broscience.
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the_bard: I would like sources from both posters above. Because all I am reading atm is generalities and broscience.
I'm just refuting two of his arguments: First, that there is no point in using weights. Second, that there is no point in doing a lower body exercise other than bodyweight squats. He has already admitted that bodyweight exercise development will take longer. I am waiting for an explanation of his claim that bodyweight exercises give better results. His claim that a 200lb person doing a single leg squat is equivalent to a 300lb barbell squat is simply wrong and I can't think of a possible source for that other than common sense.


Here are some studies:

This study compared trunk muscle activation (abs, obliques, lower back) in exercises. They found that weighted squat and deadlift resulted in much more core activation than any bodyweight exericise including the bodyweight squat. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18076231

He claims that you don't need to do deadlifts for lower body and before that reccommended doing planks and bridges. This study shows that for lower back development deadlifting is far superior to planks and bridges: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22032222.

Here is one of many studies showing that heavy weight training increases testosterone production: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20803956

All peer reviewed and from within the last 5 years.
Post edited March 06, 2012 by gandhi1900
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the_bard: Sources?
Go to a yoga class, look at all the amazing looking, in shape folks. That's what body weight does for you.

Of course, be careful, you can still fuck up your joints, even with yoga.

EDIT: To add to the pile, I recently read about sandbag workouts:)
Post edited March 06, 2012 by orcishgamer
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gandhi1900: A couple of points on single leg squats:
- Yes I can do a full set. I only do them for balance and I weigh more than you.
- If you weigh 200lbs and only do single leg squats I'd be impressed if you could properly rep out a 300lb squat. I don't see how your lower back would be developed enough to handle the weight.
- A beginner will see much faster progress with traditional squats because they can continuously put on weight. The jump from a bodyweight squat to a single leg is large so the beginner has to do awkward assisted single legs and can't measure how much help theyre using each time.

A bigger problem with bodyweight exercises is that there is no equivalent for deadlifting. If your goal is functional strength deadlifting is one of the best exercises you can do.
Name a situation where one needs to place that much load on the spine. I'm seriously curious about a situation one might commonly come across where placing that much weight on the spine is a good thing.

Every circumstance I've ever been in where I needed to lift a lot of weight, I was offloading damn near all of it onto my hips.

Not to mention the damage you do inherently at the bottom of your squat by placing the load transverse to the spine. That is damn near the most damaging thing that people do to their spine.

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hedwards: The reason you get slower results with bodyweight work outs is because you're building pretty much everything out at a similar rate.
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gandhi1900: I'm pretty sure you can workout your muscles at a similar rate with weights. I'd argue that it is much easier because you can select how much weight to use for each exercise. You're not stuck with bodyweight and bodyweight + assistance.
Bullshit, if you actually knew what you were talking about you wouldn't be offering this bullshit excuse. Weights make it a lot easier to get in over your head. What's more if you know what you're doing, there are various ways of making exercises easier or harder. From reducing the range of motion in the beginning phases to choosing something that's less taxing.

Unlike with weights you don't have the kind of problems with muscles getting out of balance because they're being used as a unit. I'm not sure how much simpler it gets.

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hedwards: Yes, it does take longer, but the results are better.
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gandhi1900: How is it better? It sounds like you're just fundamentally opposed to weighlifting. The simple fact is that it is easier to get stronger and look better with the use of weights.
My lifts have always been weaker because I've been worrying about functional strength. You don't get stronger pushing around weights and I have never met anybody who thought that pushing and pulling on weights was the end game. Sure, I can't typically lift as much weight as other people do, however, get me out of the gym and I'm a lot stronger than those nancy boys that don't ever bother strengthening their legs.

If you don't know how to transmit forces through the rest of your body, then you don't really know much about strength.

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hedwards: I used to work out with weights, I don't any longer because quite frankly, I don't need a false sense of strength that comes from being out of balance...
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gandhi1900: Again, no idea what this means. False sense of strength? I can assure you that I am stronger than you in a very real sense.
Unless you're goal is purely to lift arbitrarily high weights, then it's a false sense of strength. True strength comes from the ability to use all of your muscles together in a coordinated fashion. You sure as hell aren't going to get that with the advice you're handing out here. You're specifically recommending 3 exercises for the lower body where one is going to be more than enough for anybody that isn't a competitive weight lifter or body builder.

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hedwards: But, yes, obviously I'm full of it because I'm not towing the industry line. Makes you wonder how anybody got strong in the millenia before freeweights and machines were invented.
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gandhi1900: Do you seriously think they got strong doing one legged squats? Or did they get strong from moving shit with physical labour?
Either possibility invalidates your hypothesis. The fact of the matter is that you'd be hard pressed to find people routinely doing things harder than one legged squats, one armed pullups, full bridges and the like.

It's quite clear that you haven't bothered to actually read up on physics, kinesthesiology, bodyweight conditioning and have a poor grasp on the consequences of ill conceived weight training.

Weights are valuable, but the way that they're used and abused in gyms is criminally negligent. There's no good reason for your back to ever be asked to support hundreds of pounds. The legs are the source of your power, why people insist upon loading up their back, which is a relatively weak structure when the legs are so powerful is beyond me.

Eh, I've got better things to do with my time than to argue with somebody too lazy to do any research into bodyweight conditioning before tearing it to shreds. Even if most of the theoretical arguments were true, it still applies piss all to person asking for advice as he's nowhere near the point of needing to worry about anything other than safety and efficacy.

For the person asking for citations, I can provide some, but if it's not obvious to you why I'm right, you're not likely to understand the citations I can provide, and I've found in the past that it's a complete waste of time to provide them as the people never understand.
You implied that you were giving up in your last post. I don't blame you.

I think your quotes below clearly demonstrate your inability to look at this topic objectively. I'm not sure if weight lifting killed your dog, but surely you must have some reason for your blind hatred which is unsupported by any sources.


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hedwards: Not to mention the damage you do inherently at the bottom of your squat by placing the load transverse to the spine. That is damn near the most damaging thing that people do to their spine.
Here is my peer reviewed article stating that heavy barbell squats are safe: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22373894
Where's your evidence?



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hedwards: It's quite clear that you haven't bothered to actually read up on physics, kinesthesiology, bodyweight conditioning and have a poor grasp on the consequences of ill conceived weight training.
I have a kin degree.

What do you mean by ill conceived weight training? I've posted four peer reviewed sources from reputable journals all reccommending weight training. The two of these that considered bodyweight exercises found that weight lifting provided greater muscle activation of not just the targeted muscle, but the core as well. What evidence have you provided?



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hedwards: For the person asking for citations, I can provide some, but if it's not obvious to you why I'm right, you're not likely to understand the citations I can provide, and I've found in the past that it's a complete waste of time to provide them as the people never understand.
How convenient. As mentioned above, I have a degree which may help me comprehend your arcane sources. Please share.



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hedwards: Name a situation where one needs to place that much load on the spine.
Anytime you are picking something heavy up off the ground?



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hedwards: Sure, I can't typically lift as much weight as other people do, however, get me out of the gym and I'm a lot stronger than those nancy boys that don't ever bother strengthening their legs.
How does this apply to anything that I've said? I reccommended doing leg exercises. I do single leg squats, but only for balance because they don't give me enough resistance anymore. I assure you that in the real world I am stronger than you in any measurement you care to apply. Especially picking something up off the ground



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hedwards: If you don't know how to transmit forces through the rest of your body, then you don't really know much about strength.
Again, how does this apply to anything that I've said? I've never said anything against full body workouts.




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hedwards: Unless you're goal is purely to lift arbitrarily high weights, then it's a false sense of strength. True strength comes from the ability to use all of your muscles together in a coordinated fashion.
I believe you are confusing coordination with strength.



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hedwards: You sure as hell aren't going to get that with the advice you're handing out here. You're specifically recommending 3 exercises for the lower body where one is going to be more than enough for anybody that isn't a competitive weight lifter or body builder.
Please explain how doing 2 more exercising will result in less muscle coordination. Sources for this claim would be appreciated.



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hedwards: Eh, I've got better things to do with my time than to argue with somebody too lazy to do any research into bodyweight conditioning before tearing it to shreds.
Not once have I attempted to tear bodyweight conditioning to shreds. I'm tearing your misinformation about weightlifitng to shreds.
Post edited March 06, 2012 by gandhi1900
Well you can listen to nobodies, or you can listen to the powerlifter quoting methods proven time and time again.

So yeah, when you're squatting almost a half ton, you get to criticize me.

This is not your petty Deus Ex vs. System Shock circle jerk BS, this is real, and this is objective.
Post edited March 06, 2012 by anjohl