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dtgreene: That classification is severely flawed.
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Klumpen0815: That's like... your opinion.
Be tolerant towards people that want their partner natural and they'll be tolerant towards you.

I wouldn't want a girl with lots of piercings, tattoos, dyed hair, make up etc... so guess how compatible even more intrusive body-mods are to this "fetish".
How we treat our body says a lot about how we perceive, accept and attend to ourselves.
The classification is objectively flawed, because it misclassifies some people and fails to classify others.
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dtgreene: That classification is severely flawed. What if a person's birth assigned sex does not match that person's chromosomes? What if somebody's sex chromosomes are something other than XX or XY? What if a person's cells are a mixture of XX and XY cells? (These situations are, in fact, things that actually happen.)

Also, see this paper for an example of an XY woman becoming pregnant:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2190741/
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AccurateArt: I agree with you, there are special cases that occur. The presence of special cases do not change the fact that overwhelmingly people are born either biologically male or biologically female via their chromosomes. Just because the special cases exist does not mean that determining gender based on chromosomes is somehow invalid.
The special cases are enough of a reason to not use chromosomes as the determining factor. In fact, I remember seeing an article where a scientist ended up concluding that asking the person is the only reliable method.

I note that some studies have shown that the brains of transgender people are physically different (in at least one region) than those of cisgender people that were assigned the same at birth and more like the gender they identify as.

Edit: Also, when referring to a transgender person, it is never appropriate to refer to said person with the person's birth name and pronouns, unless the person has explicitly asked for them (and not later said otherwise). By referring to Caitlyn Jenner by her birth name and using male pronouns to refer to her, you have been extremely disrespectful. How would you like it if someone kept calling *you* by the wrong name?
Post edited January 11, 2016 by dtgreene
The attached picture states exactly what I think about the whole transgender topic. I know my rep will go down. I don't care.

Ibelieve if you don't feel a connection to your physical, biologycal, meassurable reality you are dellusional. And well, transgenders at least try to physically adjust their body to their mind, but all those other made up genders "bigender", "genderfluid", and others, and things such as the "otherkin" are the most terrible things to ever happen to our species and much likelly will present the downfall of all civilizations which manifest such dellusions. And example of that is the grown up man who decided he wanted to become a 6 year old girl and abandoned his family to do so.

But hey. all that is just my opinion, the opinion of some Mexican pendejo who likes lolicon and has not yet completed his college degree in literary studies. I am a nobody, it is up to you to take my views seriously, disregard them, or feel offended by them. The later being the reaction of a mentally wasteful person.
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dtgreene: *loud liberalism*
Congratulations. Yet again, you've managed to drive a whole thread toward the LGBT issue. I almost have to admire your baiting ability. I suppose I have to weigh in here.

First and foremost, let me express that I AM biased. I am a Christian. I readily and openly admit this. My viewpoints reflect my religion.

I personally agree with Klumpen and others. I could be wrong here, but you're sounding suspiciously like you line up with those "if you turn down a relationship/sex with anybody, you're a bigot" stereotypes. Dude, if somebody doesn't want to engage somebody else because of how they are, that's their problem!
I don't want to date a gay man.
I don't want to date a transgender individual.
I don't want to date a person with too many tattoos, piercings, etc.
So, suddenly, I'M the bad guy because I'm too choosy? It's MY choice who I interact with. Maybe I don't even want these people as my friends! That's not for you or them or anybody else to decide. As long as I'm not actively abusing them, spouting insults, or otherwise making threatening gestures, I'm no bigot.
In fact, let's turn that around a bit. You ask that we not judge people based on their choices. If I choose not to associate with these people, and you're mad at me for it, does that not actually make YOU the bigot?
If you're going to preach respect for the choices of others, then practice the same yourself.
RESPECT DOES NOT EQUAL EMBRACING THE OTHER PERSON'S VIEWS!

(edited for grammar)
Post edited January 12, 2016 by zeogold
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Klumpen0815: That's like... your opinion.
Be tolerant towards people that want their partner natural and they'll be tolerant towards you.

I wouldn't want a girl with lots of piercings, tattoos, dyed hair, make up etc... so guess how compatible even more intrusive body-mods are to this "fetish".
How we treat our body says a lot about how we perceive, accept and attend to ourselves.
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dtgreene: The classification is objectively flawed, because it misclassifies some people and fails to classify others.
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AccurateArt: I agree with you, there are special cases that occur. The presence of special cases do not change the fact that overwhelmingly people are born either biologically male or biologically female via their chromosomes. Just because the special cases exist does not mean that determining gender based on chromosomes is somehow invalid.
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dtgreene: The special cases are enough of a reason to not use chromosomes as the determining factor. In fact, I remember seeing an article where a scientist ended up concluding that asking the person is the only reliable method.

I note that some studies have shown that the brains of transgender people are physically different (in at least one region) than those of cisgender people that were assigned the same at birth and more like the gender they identify as.

Edit: Also, when referring to a transgender person, it is never appropriate to refer to said person with the person's birth name and pronouns, unless the person has explicitly asked for them (and not later said otherwise). By referring to Caitlyn Jenner by her birth name and using male pronouns to refer to her, you have been extremely disrespectful. How would you like it if someone kept calling *you* by the wrong name?
I do not recognize "Catilyn" as being a female, so I will refer to him using his biological gender (much in the same way that I do not refer to someone identifying as "transabled" as being disabled). Remember what I said in the previous posts, facts are not determined by feelings. My friend may feel like he is disabled, but if he does not actually suffer from a disability, I will not indulge him by referring to him as such (this is referring to the transabled argument I mentioned earlier). I do not see transgenderism as being valid as I believe that chromosomes do have a role in determining one's sex (I will address your point about this a little later in my post). So with that said, Bruce (or Caitlyn if you prefer) is a male, who has male body parts, and male chromosomes. I do not mean any disrespect towards Bruce surely :)

Also, I have no problem acknowledging different brain activity in individuals who feel this way (some studies have also shown that the some of transgenderism can be explained due to trauma in one's life). The difference in brain activity in certain cases does not make them a different gender.

To also answer your first point, how many people suffer from the special conditions listed above? Also, why should that small percentage dictate that the entire classification method is false? So because of these special cases, asking the EVERY person their gender is the way to determine one's gender? Chromosomes do not matter at all? The scientific community as a whole would never get around that idea.
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LeonardoCornejo: The attached picture states exactly what I think about the whole transgender topic. I know my rep will go down. I don't care.

Ibelieve if you don't feel a connection to your physical, biologycal, meassurable reality you are dellusional. And well, transgenders at least try to physically adjust their body to their mind, but all those other made up genders "bigender", "genderfluid", and others, and things such as the "otherkin" are the most terrible things to ever happen to our species and much likelly will present the downfall of all civilizations which manifest such dellusions. And example of that is the grown up man who decided he wanted to become a 6 year old girl and abandoned his family to do so.

But hey. all that is just my opinion, the opinion of some Mexican pendejo who likes lolicon and has not yet completed his college degree in literary studies. I am a nobody, it is up to you to take my views seriously, disregard them, or feel offended by them. The later being the reaction of a mentally wasteful person.
I can safely tell you that your views on this topic are no less valid than mine or anyone else's because the value of a person does not depend on his/her educational or workplace accomplishments. Your voice is just as valuable, do not let anyone say otherwise :)

I remember reading that story about the guy who believes he is a 6 year old female. At first I thought I was reading the Onion. More horrifying than the actual story though were the people commenting in the story who were defending his actions.
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dtgreene: *loud liberalism*
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zeogold: Congratulations. Yet again, you've managed to drive a whole thread toward the LGBT issue. I almost have to admire your baiting ability. I suppose I have to weigh in here.
I was actually not the one who brought up the issue. After asking if a certain other user would be attracted to a certain type of person (redheaded man with boobs, something that can reasonably happen), he (I assume from this person claiming to be attracted to women and not gay) mentioned "transgender". It just so happened that the thread happened to latch on to the topic.
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zeogold: I don't want to date a transgender individual.
What if you are already dating the transgender individual, but you don't realize it until the person tells you several dates in?
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AccurateArt: I do not recognize "Catilyn" as being a female, so I will refer to him using his biological gender (much in the same way that I do not refer to someone identifying as "transabled" as being disabled).
Actually, Caitlyn Jenner is, thanks to hormones, biologically more female than male. If you are going to attempt to make a biological determination of gender, hormonal balance is a better criteria than chromosomes.
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AccurateArt: Chromosomes do not matter at all? The scientific community as a whole would never get around that idea.
Actually, I believe sex chromosomes don't matter once sex has already been determined. If one were to take a grown XY male and replace every Y chromosome with a copy of the X chromosome, you would get an XX male, not an XX female.
Post edited January 12, 2016 by dtgreene
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zeogold: I suppose I have to weigh in here.
Actually, you don't. Just look at me.
Post edited January 12, 2016 by Breja
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AccurateArt: I do not mean any disrespect towards [Caitlyn] surely :)
By referring to her by the wrong name, you are disrespecting her.
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zeogold: Congratulations. Yet again, you've managed to drive a whole thread toward the LGBT issue. I almost have to admire your baiting ability. I suppose I have to weigh in here.
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dtgreene: I was actually not the one who brought up the issue. After asking if a certain other user would be attracted to a certain type of person (redheaded man with boobs, something that can reasonably happen), he (I assume from this person claiming to be attracted to women and not gay) mentioned "transgender". It just so happened that the thread happened to latch on to the topic.
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zeogold: I don't want to date a transgender individual.
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dtgreene: What if you are already dating the transgender individual, but you don't realize it until the person tells you several dates in?
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AccurateArt: I do not recognize "Catilyn" as being a female, so I will refer to him using his biological gender (much in the same way that I do not refer to someone identifying as "transabled" as being disabled).
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dtgreene: Actually, Caitlyn Jenner is, thanks to hormones, biologically more female than male. If you are going to attempt to make a biological determination of gender, hormonal balance is a better criteria than chromosomes.
More biologically female? Did Bruce develop a vagina or ovaries? What does being more "biologically female" even mean?

Also, tell me what was Bruce's hormonal balance at birth? As I do not believe that gender is a malleable thing, I recognize one's biological gender :)

Looking forward to your response!
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LeonardoCornejo: The attached picture states exactly what I think about the whole transgender topic. I know my rep will go down. I don't care.

[picture of Y chromosomes attached, with text saying "good luck reassigning this"]
Except that the Y chromosome doesn't matter past birth, once sex has already been determined.

Edit: Added detail about attached picture in quote.
Post edited January 12, 2016 by dtgreene
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AccurateArt: I do not mean any disrespect towards [Caitlyn] surely :)
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dtgreene: By referring to her by the wrong name, you are disrespecting her.
So if I call Bruce --> Cailyn Jenner a wonderful and accomplished man, would you feel better?
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dtgreene: By referring to her by the wrong name, you are disrespecting her.
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AccurateArt: So if I call Bruce --> Cailyn Jenner a wonderful and accomplished man, would you feel better?
No, because she is not a man. Also, her name is "Caitlyn", not "Cailyn". ("Cailyn" sounds like it would work as a name, however.)
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zeogold: Congratulations. Yet again, you've managed to drive a whole thread toward the LGBT issue. I almost have to admire your baiting ability. I suppose I have to weigh in here.
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dtgreene: I was actually not the one who brought up the issue. After asking if a certain other user would be attracted to a certain type of person (redheaded man with boobs, something that can reasonably happen), he (I assume from this person claiming to be attracted to women and not gay) mentioned "transgender". It just so happened that the thread happened to latch on to the topic.
You may not have started it, but you sure as heck escalated it. It's not exactly like you have the best track record on this issue, man. This isn't the first time you've baited an entire thread. I'm just happy it wasn't out of place this time.
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zeogold: I don't want to date a transgender individual.
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dtgreene: What if you are already dating the transgender individual, but you don't realize it until the person tells you several dates in?
Then I would IMMEDIATELY dump them, because obviously there's a problem in the relationship if they're going to keep secrets as big as that from you. A lack of trust is a bad sign for a future partnership.
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AccurateArt: More biologically female? Did Bruce develop a vagina or ovaries? What does being more "biologically female" even mean?

Also, tell me what was Bruce's hormonal balance at birth? As I do not believe that gender is a malleable thing, I recognize one's biological gender :)

Looking forward to your response!
Again, her name is "Caitlyn", not "Bruce".

Caitlyn's hormonal balance at birth was likely similar to that of any other child (regardless of sex), as she had not gone through puberty at that point.

Keep in mind, Caitlyn did develop breasts on hormones. Similarly, a trans man will develop facial hair and other masculine traits when on testosterone.
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zeogold: This isn't the first time you've baited an entire thread.
To be fair, the thread was shameless bait right from the start.