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Leonard03: Then you sure better be having a heck of a lot of fun this game. Dang, I don't know if I should believe you or not. I've mistaken the town enthusiasm of adalia as scum before.
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dedoporno: He convinced you that easy?
lol. Heck no. HSL is just so... I dunno, not right.

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mchack: leonard has been the only exception to that, which I found unfortunate myself but he rather forced it on himself
I did nothing of the sort. It's not my fault I don't immediately believe someone's claim in a game of mafia.

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mchack: Leonard. Can you please stay on topic. You can continue your discussion with hsl tomorrow. Now it's time to lynch scum.
I AM. Aaarrgh. HSL is scum, I'm pretty sure.




@Krypsyn You're right, cult games are madness. I'll pass on next one, lol
As discussion is still ongoing I don’t think leaving bookwyrm at L-1 is wise. So until we are done discussing:
Unvote bookwyrm
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Leonard03: @Krypsyn You're right, cult games are madness.
And this game has two of them.

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trentonlf: As discussion is still ongoing I don’t think leaving bookwyrm at L-1 is wise.
Your vote put him at L-2. Nobody else voted for him since your vote. Your unvote put him back at L-3.
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ZFR: Same question from me. Do you still think Wyrm is scum?
Is this directed at me? If yes, I didn't originally think Wyrm was scum, he was and still is hard to read for me, so if I think he is scum it won't be "still". His big post seems to be thought through but I'm unsure of the motivation behind it. I'm still not convinced he is scum but I don't like the open discussion on roles he is trying to start. I don't have too much time on my hands to try and go over every assumption and conclusion he has listed - some of the reads I agree with on-the-fly, some I'm hesitant to agree with just because I'm unsure of my own reads. To be honest I'd rather go with Leonard over Wyrm and I still won't be sure about Wyrm afterwards - he is among the players that I know are capable of brazen scum plays (like that Cop claim, even though I was sure he was bullshitting us but no one believed me and we lost because of it). So far mostly others suspected him so maybe I'm reading him wrong but I can't make up my mind. I was starting to think we might have a good chance with him but if his big comes does come from a Town mindset it seems to make some sense on when the masons discussion is put to the side.

TL;DR: I still can't make up my mind.
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dedoporno: So even in your "I've got it all figured" scenario there is some uncertainty. And don't you think spilling info on three people to confirm/condemn one is a bit too much? I said I believe 1 to 1 is OK since it should provide enough context to figure out who is telling the truth and who isn't, but only if someone was going to come out and challenge mchack's claim on their own. Everything more than this will likely destroy whatever mystery there is left and from then on it's a race on who will be able to pick the opponents faster. Town can remove one scum at most and that will never change - if everything gets revealed with certainty we are going to lose in the long run for sure (it might not be even that long depending on how things go).
-I haven't "spilled" anything. I've taken Mchack's statements about who he is/is not masons with, and I've taken the wagon analysis that town should be doing anyway, and combined them to come up with the obvious conclusion. This is something that any of us could have done (even the new guy), and I'd wager that scum have either already done it, or they would have done it at night if we didn't. Continuing to pretend that Mason!Mchack hasn't outed his mason buddies isn't doing town any favors, and it may prevent town from advancing in a useful direction as townies are too busy trying to avoid outing the masons to deal with the problem of lynching scum.

I refer you back to Day 1, where none of the primary wagons were moving, and no one tried to start a new one before time had basically run out.

-We were in that race at least from the moment that Mchack started claiming, whether you want to admit it or not.

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Bookwyrm627: That's (effectively?) four votes. Two more will kill a townie and save me some writing.
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dedoporno: I think they were three at the time of the quoted post and are currently four.
That is from the official vote record. My count includes Adalia's vote, under the assumption that he did mean to vote for me. He didn't unvote first, so officially his vote for me was invalid.

And if there are fewer votes for me than I indicated, I'd read it as even fewer people than I thought wanted to stop me.

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mchack: Then why out the so clear masons when you are town yourself? Maybe some scum can read even less than you supposedly do, and this would only help them get their last conversion shots right tonight.
A simple analysis of the D1 wagons (that was going to happen anyway) combined with YOUR claims were all that was needed to out the masons. I've stopped pretending they were uncovered, but them being exposed is your fault, not mine. If you didn't want them outed, then you shouldn't have claimed.

While someone would have to try and read me to figure whether I'm coming from town or scum (what would be my scum motivation for this, anyway?), one doesn't have to do much more than surface reading to conclude "I can't see masons risking their mason buddy this way".

Maybe I could have only said "According to the wagons, Dedo, Krypsyn, and ZFR aren't aligned with Mchack", but the net effect (only Flub, Trent, or Sage could be your mason buddies) is the same. Dancing around naming them as the masons is tedious, and it prevents us from clearly saying why Flub, Trent, and/or Sage are off the table.

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mchack: What I propose is this. Let's lynch bookwyrm and we can know by the flip whether what he said up until now is coming from scum or from town. if town, you can decide to lynch me tomorrow or have the other two masons back me up
Your plan for when I flip town is either to lynch a mason or to out the rest of the masons?

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mchack: if he flips scum, then we know we are on the right track and get some more info by hopefully scum flips from getting their conversion shots wrong (because we haven't explicitly talked about who is mason but me) or they nk me which also helps town by confirming that I really am mason and you can go back through my posts and judge what I said from that perspective.
*snort* If I flip scum, what does that tell you? That HSL is scum? You've already drawn that conclusion before my flip.

I've already outlined why scum almost certainly won't be shooting wrong, and it is your information that filled in the missing pieces.

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mchack: I still say this was not a town thing to do D2 with two conversion shots left and two masons still in hiding and thereby you are scum and have to be lynched today.
The idea that your mason buddies were still in hiding is nothing but an illusion, much like an ostrich with its head in the sand still has its butt standing high, just waiting to be shot.

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ZFR: At this moment I believe mchack (if only because 3 hackers would have done something about it by now, plus it is consistent with his voting D1 and D2).
What would they have done? Voted for the claimed mason? Outed themselves?

Maybe put together the evidence that shows the claim is false, without actually claiming themselves? :P

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ZFR: I know it's just my word for it.
*shrug* You are probably already aware that you gave the expected answer, regardless of your alignment.

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ZFR: Would you have made this post if you were a cyborg? I think you might have. Maybe even its intention was to give pointers to your cyborg friends before your lynch. But if you're townie, then I apologize.
How close was I to being lynched before this?

Assume for a moment that I'm a cyborg. What would I have to gain by this? Can you give any half-way plausible reason that isn't "WIFOM"?
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mchack: But after your flip we can go back to this post to sort it out with the full information available (after all masons claiming tomorrow if the other two agree)
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dedoporno: Do you still think Wyrm is scum after he put his cards on the table?
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ZFR: I see mchack made his post while I was typing.

Same question from me. Do you still think Wyrm is scum?
I can't know for sure but I know that discussing who the masons are is incredibly scummy. no one benefits from it but scum having a sure call for their conversions tonight.
I will not disclose whether his post is in any way correct or not. I also recommend that anyone he may or may not got right or wrong to not disclose that fact. This will only help scum tonight. I know I am mason. The other two masons know I am mason. I know that none of the three I proposed as good lynch targets today are mason. So for any town not sure, this should be enough and just vote for the one you see scummiest of the three. and when we do get a wagon then just lynch him and we'll see a flip.

Best we hit scum, worst we hit town vanilla. There is no way to hit a mason in any of those three.

Then night will come and tomorrow we can go full monty if you guys want.

But going full monty today is just too dangerous as that would loose us any chance of scum killing themselves by getting it wrong. And tomorrow we would have a teams of (at worst) 4 scum + 2 scum + 3 mason + 2 vanilla minus one vanilla or scum (or even mason if you don't believe me) depending on the flip.
and this is exactly what bookwyrm is proposing, which is why I still want him lynched (even if town, this is just too scummy a thing to risk - he even said he believed me, but then why frigging why do this.)

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trentonlf: As discussion is still ongoing I don’t think leaving bookwyrm at L-1 is wise. So until we are done discussing:
Unvote bookwyrm
any more discussion on the topic of masons can only hurt town. the only discussion I want is which of the three to lynch and then just do it. Tomorrow there will likely be not as much risk anymore and we can talk. Today not lynching a mason should be enough. (and we won't)
Unofficial Vote Count

flubbucket - 0 Votes (ZFR 705/787; Krypsyn 739/834)

Bookwyrm627 - 3 Votes (trentonlf 776/855; flubbucket 777/819; mchack 782/823; mchack 918; Krypsyn 931; ZFR 935; trentonlf 938/947)

trentonlf - 0 Votes (Bookwyrm627 708/913; adaliabooks 717/723)

dedoporno - 0 Votes

adaliabooks - 1 Votes (flubbucket 712/777; mchack 714/782; mchack 823/873; flubbucket 827; Leonard03 891/939; mchack 894/918)

Krypsyn - 0 Votes

ZFR - 0 Votes

Leonard03 - 2 Votes (adaliabooks 723/748; ZFR 787/835; trentonlf 855/884; dedoporno 856; ZFR 858/897; mchack 873/894; adaliabooks 874)

mchack - 0 Votes (Bookwyrm627 696/708; adaliabooks 748/824; Leonard03 803/890)

Sage103082|gogtrial34987 - 0 Votes (Leonard03 781/803|)

HypersomniacLive - 1 Votes (trentonlf 702/776; Krypsyn 834/883; Leonard03 939)

Not Voting - 4 abstentions (gogtrial34987; HypersomniacLive; Bookwyrm627; trentonlf)
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Lifthrasil: Well, the official vote count directly behind the inofficial might be moot, but I'll be away for some hours. So to make it official:

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Official Vote Count

Bookwyrm 1 - mchack 918
adalia 2 - flubb 872, Leonard 891
Leonard 2 - dedo 856, adalia 874

Not voting: Bookwyrm, trent, krypsyn, ZFR, gogtrial, HSL
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Is adalia not voting for bookwyrm? (Post 920)
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ZFR: I see mchack made his post while I was typing.

Same question from me. Do you still think Wyrm is scum?
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mchack: I can't know for sure but I know that discussing who the masons are is incredibly scummy. no one benefits from it but scum having a sure call for their conversions tonight.
I will not disclose whether his post is in any way correct or not. I also recommend that anyone he may or may not got right or wrong to not disclose that fact. This will only help scum tonight. I know I am mason. The other two masons know I am mason. I know that none of the three I proposed as good lynch targets today are mason. So for any town not sure, this should be enough and just vote for the one you see scummiest of the three. and when we do get a wagon then just lynch him and we'll see a flip.

Best we hit scum, worst we hit town vanilla. There is no way to hit a mason in any of those three.

Then night will come and tomorrow we can go full monty if you guys want.

But going full monty today is just too dangerous as that would loose us any chance of scum killing themselves by getting it wrong. And tomorrow we would have a teams of (at worst) 4 scum + 2 scum + 3 mason + 2 vanilla minus one vanilla or scum (or even mason if you don't believe me) depending on the flip.
and this is exactly what bookwyrm is proposing, which is why I still want him lynched (even if town, this is just too scummy a thing to risk - he even said he believed me, but then why frigging why do this.)

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trentonlf: As discussion is still ongoing I don’t think leaving bookwyrm at L-1 is wise. So until we are done discussing:
Unvote bookwyrm
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mchack: any more discussion on the topic of masons can only hurt town. the only discussion I want is which of the three to lynch and then just do it. Tomorrow there will likely be not as much risk anymore and we can talk. Today not lynching a mason should be enough. (and we won't)
I don’t want to discuss Masons at all, I meant discussing if bookwyrm is who we feel is our best chance of hitting scum or not.
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trentonlf: Is adalia not voting for bookwyrm? (Post 920)
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Lifthrasil: 5. All players have a vote, which they may place upon any player. An existing vote has to be withdrawn by unvoting before placing another vote. Once a player has more than 50% of the votes, that player will be lynched. No amount of unvoting can prevent a lynch from occurring once a majority is reached. If you don't unvote, only the previously active vote will count.
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mchack: I can't know for sure but I know that discussing who the masons are is incredibly scummy. no one benefits from it but scum having a sure call for their conversions tonight. Except my claim, which is totally not a scummy move.

I will not disclose whether his post is in any way correct or not. I also recommend that anyone he may or may not got right or wrong to not disclose that fact. This will only help scum tonight. I know I am mason. The other two masons know I am mason. I know that none of the three I proposed as good lynch targets today are mason. So for any town not sure, this should be enough and just vote for the one you see scummiest of the three. Don't even think about trying to come up with who you think is scum. Don't provide any arguments or views. Just quietly go along with what I say.

Best we hit scum, worst we hit town vanilla. There is no way to hit a mason in any of those three. We'll ignore all the rest of the players right now and just assume that I (or we) are correct in how we're reading the game state. I'm sure this won't come back to bite town in the *** when one or more of us are killed.

and this is exactly what bookwyrm is proposing, which is why I still want him lynched (even if town, this is just too scummy a thing to risk - he even said he believed me, but then why frigging why do this.) I refuse to even consider what he had to say about why he followed the dots that I left behind.
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mchack: any more discussion on the topic of masons can only hurt town. the only discussion I want is which of the three to lynch and then just do it. Tomorrow there will likely be not as much risk anymore and we can talk. Today not lynching a mason should be enough. (and we won't)
Accidently hit the "post message" hotkey before I was done.

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mchack: I can't know for sure but I know that discussing who the masons are is incredibly scummy. no one benefits from it but scum having a sure call for their conversions tonight. Except my claim, which is totally not a scummy move and totally didn't just reveal all of us.

I will not disclose whether his post is in any way correct or not, because i can't find any holes in his arguments. I also recommend that anyone he may or may not got right or wrong to not disclose that fact. This will only help scum tonight. I know I am mason. The other two masons know I am mason. I know that none of the three I proposed as good lynch targets today are mason. So for any town not sure, this should be enough and just vote for the one you see scummiest of the three. Don't even think about trying to come up with who you think is scum are your own. Don't provide any arguments or views. Just quietly go along with what I say.

Best we hit scum, worst we hit town vanilla, because hitting town vanilla is acceptable when I'm the one leading the lynch on them. There is no way to hit a mason in any of those three. We'll ignore all the rest of the players right now and just assume that I (and my buddies) are correct in how we're reading the game state. I'm sure this won't come back to bite town in the *** when one or more of us are killed, or when we misread players.

and this is exactly what bookwyrm is proposing, which is why I still want him lynched (even if town, this is just too scummy a thing to risk - he even said he believed me, but then why frigging why do this.) I'm now perfectly happy to lynch someone that I think might possibly be town. I refuse to even consider what he had to say about why he followed the dots that I left behind.
I added the things you forgot to say. Don't worry, I underlined them for you.


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mchack: any more discussion on the topic of masons can only hurt town. the only discussion I want is which of the three to lynch and then just do it. Tomorrow there will likely be not as much risk anymore and we can talk. Today not lynching a mason should be enough. (and we won't)
Yeah, no. F that noise. I know you are factually wrong about one of your candidates, and your insistence on completely ignoring certain facts means I don't trust the rest of your reads either. This townie is not blindly joining you on a lynch just because you claimed mason. You simply aren't credible enough in this game for me to do that.

You might lynch one of the three of us Today, but you'll do it without my vote unless you prove to be more persuasive than you have been.
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ZFR: Same question from me. Do you still think Wyrm is scum?
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dedoporno: Is this directed at me?
It was directed at mchack, but thank you for your input too.

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Bookwyrm627: Assume for a moment that I'm a cyborg. What would I have to gain by this? Can you give any half-way plausible reason that isn't "WIFOM"?
I can't. Honestly.
But I also think if you are doing it as WIFOM, you are capable of pulling it off. dedo just said you pulled off "that Cop claim, even though I was sure he was bullshitting us but no one believed me and we lost because of it".

Look, I'm really inclined to believe you, but at this point all I want is not to hit a mason. So I would rather follow what the mason says. Following him can't lynch a mason, even if he is a fraud (which I doubt) real masons wouldn't allow it. I will happily change my vote if mchack says otherwise.

mchack, please consider this: I know you consider discussing mason anti-town, and I can agree on this, but if Bookwyrm was a scum, would he write all that exposition? Wouldn't he rather keep it to himself and his scum team for the night? WIFOM aside.
Do consider adalia or HSL. I will follow that vote. Or Leonard too; if you decide to go that way.
And I know you might think me now Bookwyrm's scum buddy, but again consider this: would I, as Bookwyrm's scum buddy, be asking this on behalf of Bookwyrm, and thus implicating myself when he is closest to being lynched and would flip scum?

Also, everyone, I really am travelling tomorrow. Across the Atlantic at that. So if I don't vote as mchack immediately it's because of that. Please wait with anything important till Wednesday evening US time if you want my input.
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trentonlf: I don’t want to discuss Masons at all, I meant discussing if bookwyrm is who we feel is our best chance of hitting scum or not.
that's fine. :) no prob with that from my side...

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mchack: I can't know for sure but I know that discussing who the masons are is incredibly scummy. no one benefits from it but scum having a sure call for their conversions tonight.
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Bookwyrm627: Except my claim, which is totally not a scummy move.
no, right. now I get it. I should have stayed silent and let you lynch a mason, which you tried hard yesterday and tried to do today (first post even). Sure I should have kept silent as I did yesterday, because nothing is townier than a mason that just let's himself get lynched. Also I didn't give out my fellow masons. Sure it isn't much margin for error but still better than just putting them out there and letting scum clap their hands like you propose.

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mchack: I will not disclose whether his post is in any way correct or not. I also recommend that anyone he may or may not got right or wrong to not disclose that fact. This will only help scum tonight. I know I am mason. The other two masons know I am mason. I know that none of the three I proposed as good lynch targets today are mason. So for any town not sure, this should be enough and just vote for the one you see scummiest of the three.
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Bookwyrm627: Don't even think about trying to come up with who you think is scum. Don't provide any arguments or views. Just quietly go along with what I say.
I said don't post who you think a mason is (or muse about it.) Yesterday you seemed to think the same but now all of a sudden it is a-ok to make sure scum can't mis-convert anymore.

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mchack: Best we hit scum, worst we hit town vanilla. There is no way to hit a mason in any of those three.
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Bookwyrm627: We'll ignore all the rest of the players right now and just assume that I (or we) are correct in how we're reading the game state. I'm sure this won't come back to bite town in the *** when one or more of us are killed.
So you think there should be no wiggle room for the other masons to hide in? You want scum to take their unmolestered pick out of the remaining vanillas? Why when not scum yourself?

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mchack: and this is exactly what bookwyrm is proposing, which is why I still want him lynched (even if town, this is just too scummy a thing to risk - he even said he believed me, but then why frigging why do this.)
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Bookwyrm627: I refuse to even consider what he had to say about why he followed the dots that I left behind.
had not much time. anyway your reason is:
sorry reread your post can't find a reason in there for why you want scum to know exactly who the masons are. Only thing I can see is you do not want to lynch either of the 3 (hsl, adalia or yourself - well maybe hsl but not really)
Sorry this is just scummy as hell.

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mchack: any more discussion on the topic of masons can only hurt town. the only discussion I want is which of the three to lynch and then just do it. Tomorrow there will likely be not as much risk anymore and we can talk. Today not lynching a mason should be enough. (and we won't)
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Bookwyrm627: Yeah, no. F that noise. I know you are factually wrong about one of your candidates, and your insistence on completely ignoring certain facts means I don't trust the rest of your reads either. This townie is not blindly joining you on a lynch just because you claimed mason. You simply aren't credible enough in this game for me to do that.

You might lynch one of the three of us Today, but you'll do it without my vote unless you prove to be more persuasive than you have been.
no this "townie" would rather have two more scum in game tomorrow than risk one mislynch (which has at least 50% chance of hitting scum and no chance of hitting a mason)
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adaliabooks: Vote Bookwyrm [...]
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HypersomniacLive: You may want to check your voting status, if your intent really is to place a counting vote on him.
Oops. It should have been a real vote, I forgot I was still voting Leonard. Been busy here.

I won't vote just yet though, I've got to catch up and I'm not sure where Bookwyrm is at don't want to hammer him if he has gathered votes and we are not ready yet.