It seems that you're using an outdated browser. Some things may not work as they should (or don't work at all).
We suggest you upgrade newer and better browser like: Chrome, Firefox, Internet Explorer or Opera

×
avatar
Sage103082: Fishing for the masons? No a townie thing to do day one.

.
My comment to flub was a joke: “hey nice looking kid, he has your looks”. How is that fishing for Masons and why would I?
avatar
ZFR: Sheesh. While typing I was ninjaed by like a zillion posts. When I started post #282 was the latest.
Speaking of which: make sure to refresh the thread just before posting once it looks like the end of the day is near (whether someone is about to be lynched or the deadline is close). And if you've been gone for awhile, then scan the last few posts for announcements from Lift that the game thread has been closed for the Night.

tl;dr => Before posting, make sure Night has not fallen.

avatar
Sage103082: So does this mean he has done something that moves him into town for you? If so would you like to share?
Just the usual "He talks".
avatar
adaliabooks: I'm going to read between the lines here... I know you're a lot cleverer then you pretend to be, so maybe you've worked out some of the things about this game that I have too and can what has to happen day 1.
Well, apparently I'm not that clever, cause I have no idea what you are talking about.


Random thought: I wonder if mafia had a night chat and were able to talk before the game started.


avatar
mchack: ... I'm still thinking it isn't something I can just forgoe and either vote against the suicidal or not without talking about it.
[...]
unvote
vote flubbucket
Talk with yourself I presume?

avatar
adaliabooks: It may only make sense to me, so many things seem to, but the way this game is set up there are some very specific outcomes of how things should happen.
If it's at all what I'm thinking it is, I think you're crazy.

avatar
ZFR: I'm seriously not sure what the correct "protocol" is here. Better not to pick anyone and wait?
avatar
Bookwyrm627: Depends on who you ask. Some of us are definitely in the "Vote Early, Vote Often" camp, while others prefer to wait until later.
adalia the former, HSL the later as examples.

avatar
ZFR: _Krypsyn - only counts and votes (#2 on who I'd vote for after adalia).
Yep. This is weird to me. Not even random YT links either. I'm... surprised. Still waiting for you to answer Trent's question @Krypsyn

avatar
ZFR: _Members of a team (scum 1, scum 1, hackers) will probably want to distance themselves. Can they overdo it? Again, thinking Resistance here, when two players are at each other's throats, they're probably both spies).
Biggest thing to remember here is that in Resistance players can't actually remove each other from the game. In fact, in that game spys are happy to be on different teams as they only need one player per mission. In mafia that stakes are turned a bit, sure they don't want to appear to be buddies but at the same time they can't get too at each others throats as it might result in them having to bus one another to keep up appearances. Not something they want to do at all, especially when running with such small scum teams.
avatar
mchack: And has everyone backed off after hyper asked that question? (in #240 his last post btw 15 hours ago in which he engaged 7 people by quoting and asked an 8th one questions w/o quote)
No, but that doesn't mean that wasn't his intention when he said it.

And just for the record, I stopped voting for you because it didn't look like the wagon was going anywhere.

avatar
mchack: yes, yes. textbook scum I am.

Tell you what: Tonight should I get nightkilled, I think it's kinda obvious people should (and hopefully will) look at you. Because then they'll see my alignment in the flip and can judge our conversation again from that point of view.
Glad you finally agree.

Well if you get Nk'd it won't be by me. But I certainly won't be shedding a tear.

avatar
Bookwyrm627: This feels odd to me.

If anything, I'd think the non-lynched player would actually reduce scum's chances of hitting correctly (killing a hacker). I find it a little hard to imagine scum being confident enough to risk dying on N1, instead of just murdering the boop out of someone.
It depends whether you consider scum will be aiming for NKs or conversions. If scum want to convert then hitting townies with lynches is bad for them, if they just want to kill people then it doesn't matter who they hit with lynches and hitting the masons at night is better (just because it removes a town utility).

avatar
flubbucket: And yet you're voting Bookwyrm627??
avatar
Bookwyrm627: ...What? Did you mistype, or did I miss something?
Meant to question this myself earlier but completely forgot.

avatar
adaliabooks: No, he wasn't wildly speculating. He very clearly suggested the reason you might be defensive was because you had a PR.
Asking the question at all could only have one purpose, to suggest that was an alternative reason for your behaviour.
avatar
Bookwyrm627: Counter example: HSL could have been questioning whether Dedo was scum trying to set someone up to be lynched.
I don't see that... if there are two options as to why someone might be overly defensive and one of them has already been suggested (scum) then it seems clear to me that HSL was suggesting the other (PR).

avatar
ZFR: Make me highly suspicious. Because when I read it, I saw myself doing exactly the same thing to newbies when playing Resistance. "You're doing great" I'd say as a spy to a newbie resistance member. "Don't let others bully you. You're doing a great job" I tell them while I smile to myself.

And few others here have gone easy on the newbie too. Only HypersomniacLive was not giving the newbie any leniency, which to be honest makes me less suspicious of him.

But seeing how adalia knows me a lot from these forums and we are friends. And how in all other games, you do want to be encouraging to newbies who join you the first time, it could be really genuine on his part. I'm not sure how meta we are supposed to go in this game.

Just my 2 cents.
Yeah, I can certainly see why you might think that. And you are right to be suspicious, but actually my words of encouragement were mainly because you've voiced a number of things which I believe quite strongly.
Stuff like any lynch is better than no lynch so day 1 any vote is basically as good is another. Saying "Picking him relates to my second point: I have to pick somebody. He's as good as any." is pretty much my day 1 play in a nutshell most of the time.

And there is also the element that you are new and we are friends :)

avatar
Sage103082: This is more for adlia. So the scum teams know who the other scum teams are?
I've already covered this; of course not, but they will be scum hunting just as much as town is to try and figure who to avoid with conversions and who to try to lynch or NK (depending on what their plan is)

avatar
Sage103082: So voting for however has the most votes is a good way to go on day one?

Unvote Krypsen vote adilabooks

Though I am happy with my kypsen vote too so may go back to it as my catching up goes.
Better than not voting at all as far as I'm concerned.

And it's not what he's doing as much as why he might be doing it.

avatar
adaliabooks: I'm going to read between the lines here... I know you're a lot cleverer then you pretend to be, so maybe you've worked out some of the things about this game that I have too and can what has to happen day 1.
avatar
Leonard03: Well, apparently I'm not that clever, cause I have no idea what you are talking about.

avatar
adaliabooks: It may only make sense to me, so many things seem to, but the way this game is set up there are some very specific outcomes of how things should happen.
avatar
Leonard03: If it's at all what I'm thinking it is, I think you're crazy.
Really? You seem to have at least some ideas...

I'm certainly not sane... but I don't think you are barking up the right tree yet if that's what you think.
avatar
dedoporno: There is no escaping the night kills, so there isn't much use in talking about that. The conversion can be affected at least somewhat, though, and that was what i was referring to. Whether or not conversions on N1 are likely to be attempted is a different topic.
avatar
Bookwyrm627: When talking about night actions, then conversions are absolutely affected by the possibility of night kills since the two can't be used together. This is what confused me about your original statements here; why would scum even try to convert tonight instead of just murdering someone?
There’s one reason why I can see that happening, killing leaves a flip which will help town solve this but conversion could leave less traces for town to follow. There’s a possibility of hitting scum or hacker but that information(which could be used to either try a lynch on said target or nk on n2) would then be known just by scum team doing conversion rather than the entire player set. I could be wrong though since you people seem good at finding converts. Also won’t deny that killing hackers would be more desirable for scum but unless they just outright state it they’re better off with conversion rather than kill. I do hope I made some sense at least, correct me if it makes no sense. Tunelled pretty hard last game with a bad theory and don’t want it to happen again.

@sage Leonard started it. Meh, it’s more like battle of wills on day 1 rather than getting it right. Kinda what mchack said about self-preservation before, I think I get it now.
avatar
dedoporno: [...] I agree it caused the opposite, hence why we started the discussion we are currently having. That doesn't mean the original goal was not something else. [...]
His goal as scum may well have been to blend in, but you are basically saying that with that goal in mind, he chose the one way that would more than likely cause the exact opposite at the time.
Weren't you the one that pointed out last game not to underestimate mchack?


avatar
dedoporno: [...] I won't be discussing power roles. I suggest you don't either, unless it becomes very necessary. [...]
Yes, grandpa, but that's not what I was doing; questioning someone is more often than not about that someone's motives and thought process.


avatar
dedoporno: [...] A gut feeling. Do you think it's as likely that a hacker is the D1 lynch? How so? [...]
Grandpa told me not to discuss PRs. I defer to his wisdom; I suggest you do the same.


avatar
dedoporno: [...] By the way, should I be addressing you from now on when I'd like to discuss mchack related topics?
My my, aren't you a tad (too) touchy... Am I supposed to not question you this game?



avatar
mchack: [...] post #139: HSL answers to Hunters worm joke his guts are fine and asks adalia how about worms quoting him not knowing about cyborgs (showing that the worm joke is still up and going) [...]
Heh.


avatar
mchack: [...] Guess I need a few more games before my meta gets known :/ [...]

then what is? [...]
You've played in three games before this one, were scum in only one of them, and in none of these games were you under any real pressure; not much of a meta from a similar situation to go by, is there? What is known, however, is that you're not the naive guy you seem to try to make us think you are.
I don't expect you to deviate from your usual play, but I do watch out for the thought process/progression behind the arguments you make, and the way you make/word them.


avatar
mchack: [...] Care to point? [...]
I may or may not have read too much into it, but better left alone at this point of the game.



avatar
Hunter65536: [...] @hsl sorry to step on your play style but could you be more verbose about what you’d want to point out in games #25 and #30? I’ve gone through #30 but I’m still confused regarding the point you were trying to make. [...]
The points aren't related.

Game #25 - adaliabooks in his post #228 pretty much summed it up to mchack. It's the perfect example of how two scum teams (two Godfathers, to be precise, and a bunch of lonesome scum with no killing power until they joined one of the Godfathers) went after the same player Night after Night, until one killed the other.
It was a nod to mchack that the case of both teams choosing the same target isn't all that incredible.

As for game #30, I believe I've already made my point pretty clear - I reminded people of BlueMooner in relation to ZFR, then went into more detail in my post #212, replying to mchack and Leonard03.
avatar
adaliabooks: Well if you get Nk'd it won't be by me. But I certainly won't be shedding a tear.
That's a very odd thing to say. If he flips town I would hope all town players are sad...

avatar
Leonard03: Well, apparently I'm not that clever, cause I have no idea what you are talking about.

If it's at all what I'm thinking it is, I think you're crazy.
avatar
adaliabooks: Really? You seem to have at least some ideas...

I'm certainly not sane... but I don't think you are barking up the right tree yet if that's what you think.
I write my posts as I read through the thread, so a possibility occurred to me later on.
avatar
trentonlf: Krypsyn is also another very smart player and I’m concerned with his lack of response to the game in general. He has made no significant attempt to engage anyone or respond to given situations other than to randomly vote or post a vote count.
avatar
Sage103082: Krypsen maybe consistent in voting so far (2 days ago as im catching up) However, I do not see much but voting the one with the most votes. How is that helping town at all. To me its more a I could care less who is lynched as long as its someone and we can move onto night.
avatar
Leonard03: Yep. This is weird to me. Not even random YT links either. I'm... surprised. Still waiting for you to answer Trent's question @Krypsyn
Fine.

This game has:
3 Mason
5 Town
2 Scum A
2 Scum B

Normally, in a Mafia game, scum starts out with more knowledge than town (since they know for sure who they are, and thus who town must be). Thus, town gains from trying to suss-out scum by getting them to hopefully slip-up; if town slips up (other than a brain-dead soft- or hard-claim for a power role), then they haven't lost anything, because scum already knew.

In this game, it is the reverse. Masons know more information than scum. They know fully who 3 people are at the start of the game, but the scum teams each only know 2. Trying to getting people to slip up on Day 1, in this case, actually has a higher likelihood of hurting town than scum, because of this knowledge inconsistency.

So, if, on Day 1, we are not discussing PRs (which is doubly dumb in this game), or not actively trying to get players to slip up and inadvertently reveal something, then what is left?

So, FIFO (first in, first out):

Unvote: adaliabooks
Vote: flubbucket

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Unofficial Vote Count

flubbucket - 4 Votes (trentonlf 123/213; Bookwyrm627 187; adaliabooks 265; mchack 268, Krypsyn 308)

Bookwyrm627 - 0 Votes - (mchack 15/56; Bookwyrm627 34/47; adaliabooks 39/46; Krypsyn 42/49, Hunter65536 108/172)

trentonlf - 0 Votes

dedoporno - 0 Votes (Leonard03 107/169)

adaliabooks - 3 Votes (ZFR 10/32; Hunter65536 16/108; Krypsyn 28/33; mchack 117/174; Leonard03 169; Krypsyn 171/308; ZFR 192; Sage103082 300)

Krypsyn - 1 Votes - (Sage103082 22/300; ZFR 32/62; Krypsyn 33/42; Krypsyn 49/61; trentonlf 72/123; Krypsyn 74/129; trentonlf 261)

ZFR - 0 Votes (adaliabooks 9/26; Bookwyrm627 12/30; Krypsyn 24/28)

Hunter65536 - 0 votes (Bookwyrm627 30/34)

Leonard03 - 0 Votes (adaliabooks 87/115; mchack 94/117; Bookwyrm627 127/127)

mchack - 0 Votes (ZFR 62/153; Bookwyrm627 127/187; Krypsyn 129/171; adaliabooks 197/265; trentonlf 213/261)

Sage103082 - 0 Votes - (trentonlf 20/72; Bookwyrm627 47/127; adaliabooks 55/65; Krypsyn 61/74; mchack 201/268)

HypersomniacLive - 0 Votes (mchack 56/94; flubbucket 80/97)

Lifthrasil (i.e. suicide vote) - 0 Votes (dedoporno 98/114)

Other - 0 votes (flubbucket 97/160)

Not Voting - HypersomniacLive, dedoporno, flubbucket, Hunter65536
avatar
HypersomniacLive: Weren't you the one that pointed out last game not to underestimate mchack?
Yes, but that does not mean he or anyone else is safe from making a mistake. Should I disregard everything it attracts my attention just because I don't want to underestimate the players?

avatar
HypersomniacLive: Yes, grandpa, but that's not what I was doing; questioning someone is more often than not about that someone's motives and thought process.
I didn't say that's what you were doing. I felt that was a possible direction where it might have went (not necessarily by your design) which was something I would like to avoid.

avatar
HypersomniacLive: My my, aren't you a tad (too) touchy... Am I supposed to not question you this game?
You are allowed to do whatever you wish. You just seemed to take a solid stand out of nowhere for mchack by your own volition so I made a remark about it.


avatar
Krypsyn: Vote: flubbucket
I'm curious, would you take any lynch as long as it happens?
avatar
adaliabooks: Well if you get Nk'd it won't be by me. But I certainly won't be shedding a tear.
avatar
Leonard03: That's a very odd thing to say. If he flips town I would hope all town players are sad...
One less town is one less person to mislynch. You must know that about me by now.

But I'm fairly certain mchack is scum, so no one (other than his buddy) should be sad when he dies.

avatar
Krypsyn: So, if, on Day 1, we are not discussing PRs (which is doubly dumb in this game), or not actively trying to get players to slip up and inadvertently reveal something, then what is left?
I find this rationale works in most games really, but even more so for this one as you have pointed out.

Sometimes I think people forget that this is a game, sure we can sit around endlessly trying to figure out exactly who is scum day 1, or we can just move things along and get to the next day where we have more info and a better chance of getting to a game winning state.


As for why I believe flub is an excellent choice... his volunteering, as it were, to be the lynch I see as a kind of soft claim. Now there is only one role in this game who would sincerely volunteer to be lynched, and that's a vanilla townie.

So what do we think is going to happen to flub tonight if he is not lynched? An almost guaranteed vanilla townie?

Sure, it could be a trap... but as a mason that would be an exceedingly stupid play and as scum it would only really work if he could reliably deflect the lynch to someone else.
Right now I'm the only real alternative to him and other than Sage voting me for my support of Krypsyn the other two votes have little to no reason beyond gut feeling behind them (and Krypsyn who has now moved his vote anyway) it's not exactly going to be easy to swing that (particularly as a number of you have said you find me townie or will not vote me today so that's even more of an uphill struggle)

So in short, flub pretty much needs to be lynched today.
avatar
dedoporno: I'm curious, would you take any lynch as long as it happens?
Trust in Masons.
Then,

unvote: adalia
vote: flubbucket

My opinion of other players hasn't changed much, but, again if someone has to be lynched it could be flub.
avatar
Leonard03: That's a very odd thing to say. If he flips town I would hope all town players are sad...
avatar
adaliabooks: One less town is one less person to mislynch. You must know that about me by now.

But I'm fairly certain mchack is scum, so no one (other than his buddy) should be sad when he dies.

avatar
Krypsyn: So, if, on Day 1, we are not discussing PRs (which is doubly dumb in this game), or not actively trying to get players to slip up and inadvertently reveal something, then what is left?
avatar
adaliabooks: I find this rationale works in most games really, but even more so for this one as you have pointed out.

Sometimes I think people forget that this is a game, sure we can sit around endlessly trying to figure out exactly who is scum day 1, or we can just move things along and get to the next day where we have more info and a better chance of getting to a game winning state.

As for why I believe flub is an excellent choice... his volunteering, as it were, to be the lynch I see as a kind of soft claim. Now there is only one role in this game who would sincerely volunteer to be lynched, and that's a vanilla townie.

So what do we think is going to happen to flub tonight if he is not lynched? An almost guaranteed vanilla townie?

Sure, it could be a trap... but as a mason that would be an exceedingly stupid play and as scum it would only really work if he could reliably deflect the lynch to someone else.
Right now I'm the only real alternative to him and other than Sage voting me for my support of Krypsyn the other two votes have little to no reason beyond gut feeling behind them (and Krypsyn who has now moved his vote anyway) it's not exactly going to be easy to swing that (particularly as a number of you have said you find me townie or will not vote me today so that's even more of an uphill struggle)

So in short, flub pretty much needs to be lynched today.
I wholeheartedly agree that we spend way too much time on Day 1’s talking about who is possible scum and why instead of actually voting and moving the game along. There needs to be some discussions that happen, but the endless repeating of the same thing over and over gets old and I think it also makes a perfect smoke screen for scum to hide behind.

I also pointed the exact thing about flub earlier (him probably being town vanilla), but I don’t agree that he should be lynched simply to lynch someone. If I think someone’s town I will not put my vote on them. I have a feeling flub will be the lynch today because once that wagon gets to 5 votes I don’t see it stopping, but it will not have my vote on it.
avatar
trentonlf: I also pointed the exact thing about flub earlier (him probably being town vanilla), but I don’t agree that he should be lynched simply to lynch someone. If I think someone’s town I will not put my vote on them. I have a feeling flub will be the lynch today because once that wagon gets to 5 votes I don’t see it stopping, but it will not have my vote on it.
That's not my point, he may well be town today (in fact I do believe he is) but if he is vanilla town he won't be tomorrow.
Having a practically guaranteed vanilla town will be too good a target for scum to pass up, little to no risk of dying and we either lynch flub tomorrow or one of the scum teams has three members.

That's why he needs to be lynched if he has claimed vanilla.

There is another side to it, but I'll only go into it if really necessary because it does give a tactic to scum that they may well not have realised yet.
avatar
adaliabooks: [...] What doesn't? He tries to make a semi-serious case for why wyrm is a mutant (because worms) and krypsyn is some kind of vote slave and then laughs it off and says its all a joke because we're not out of RVS.
It reeks of trying too hard to cover up a slip to me. [...]
Was he trying to make a semi-serious case about Bookwyrm627? Were you?


avatar
adaliabooks: [...] And yes, I'm well aware that his only actual commentary is about the vote counts he has made.

But I still prefer his input so far to the likes of flub or sage's lurking.

If he keeps it up tomorrow then he's probably getting my vote, but for now I can't really hold it against him.
And how is his input helpful come D2, let alone more helpful than that of flubbucket or Sage103082? More so in a setup with two scum teams that have a conversion ability on top? He can spin what he's doing any way he wants, and no-one would be any wiser. Last game, Bookwyrm627 said something about clean slates on D2.



avatar
adaliabooks: [...] (which is what Hyper was obviously hinting at) [...]
Obviously.


avatar
adaliabooks: [...] He very clearly suggested the reason you might be defensive was because you had a PR. [...]
Very clearly.


avatar
adaliabooks: [...] Asking the question at all could only have one purpose, [...]
Only one.


avatar
adaliabooks: [...] Which makes me believe that is what Hyper wanted, and there are two outcomes I can see from that;
Everyone backs off you (which makes me believe Hyper may be your buddy)
Or you get NK'd by one of the scum teams who now wonder if you might be a mason after all (in which case Hyper may well be scum but not aligned to you) [...]
If I were scum and scum-buddies with mchack, why would I be so very clearly and obviously trying to save him on D1 when, as you yourself pointed out, he had a mere two votes, risking the exposure of our connection and my own potential lynch at the process (the latter applying to both cases of me being scum)?

*WIFOM argument "you'd not do it, so you'd do it" incoming in 5, 4, 3, 2, ...*


avatar
adaliabooks: No, but that doesn't mean that wasn't his intention when he said it. [...]
Because if I were scum and had said intention, doing what you believe I did wouldn't in any way, shape or form stand out, with all the implications I already mentioned, right? Right?

*More of the above sort of WIFOM arguments incoming in 3, 2, ... 1!*


avatar
adaliabooks: [...] Either way Hyper comes off pretty badly from the exchange as far as I'm concerned.
avatar
adaliabooks: [...] I've already covered why he might want to do that, and I'm leaning towards the first option. [...]
Then you should vote me, and convince six others to lynch me Today. And after I flip, see how much of scum's work you've done, and who all was willing to join you, but don't forget to look at those that weren't, and everyone's reason(s) for their stance. If you're town, that is.



avatar
dedoporno: Yes, but that does not mean he or anyone else is safe from making a mistake. Should I disregard everything it attracts my attention just because I don't want to underestimate the players? [...]
True that, and of course you shouldn't, but neither is what got my attention.


avatar
dedoporno: [...] You just seemed to take a solid stand out of nowhere for mchack by your own volition so I made a remark about it. [...]
mchack was not the focus of my "stand".


avatar
trentonlf: [...] but I don’t agree that he should be lynched simply to lynch someone. [...]
The reason adaliabooks is firm on lynching flubbucket is to avert his quite likely conversion Tonight, not to simply lynch someone.



Can we drop the voting of flubbucket a couple of notches? I'd like to see what else Sage103082 has to say Today.