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ResidentLeever: Story light RPGs tend to be Dungeon Crawlers.
Counter-example: The original Dragon Quest. Also, early Ultima games.

In these games, you spend most of your time on the world map rather than in dungeons.

(Also, these games are open world, though in DQ you won't be able to get far at low levels (barring luck manipulation).)
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MysterD: So, here's another thing - let's look at Bloodlines (i.e. my favorite game of all time).

I love that game to death (pun...maybe intended here?).

Anyways, to me - this is one of those RPG/FPS/TPA hybrids.
TPA = third-person action - since melee switches automatically to third-person action game w/ the camera behind you. FPS = First Person Shooter, since shooting in first-person which is why I also put the FPS tag in there.

So, I think my question is...is this also an "immersive sim"?

To me, it felt more Deus Ex-like and "immersive sim" than even say Deus Ex: Invisible War. IW dumbed-down a lot there - while the other main Deus Ex games (Deus Ex 1, DE: HR, and DE:MD) really did NOT.

There are often numerous classes and ways to play the game and finish quests in Bloodlines - similar to a Dishonored or Deus Ex. And if you're say Nosferatu and/or use a character focused on stealth - you can approach areas, entrances, and whatnot...a bit differently than other normal characters with straight-up combat (whether you go w/ say shooting, melee, or say combos of both.
To be honest, I didn't even know earlier about such term as immersive sim. From what I understand though (reading the definition and typology), it's rather considered as sub-type for action games, which would suggest, more or less, that the main "core" of Bloodlines is (probably?) action game.

Kinda tricky example (Bloodlines), and for good reasons (you've listed a lot of them).

My general though is, that for better understanding I should try to find out, what is the "basic" piece of paper, and what are "add-ons" which are glued to the paper. Of course this approach will work well only if we've got some concrete form, while content can be easily "mixed" (e.g. mentioned Bloodlines - it has a form of first/third person action game, while content is a mix of action game (with many sub-genres, like stealth game, shooter etc), cRPG, somehow even adventure game etc.

And I know this approach may sound a bit technical, especially for someone who would prefer to give more significance to content than form. On the other hand - I believe that some sort of typology and definitions should be clear and (as much as possible) unambiguous, otherwise we're literally unable to discuss this matter ("this is fluent, everyone has opinion, none of them is better than other").
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MysterD: So, here's another thing - let's look at Bloodlines (i.e. my favorite game of all time).

I love that game to death (pun...maybe intended here?).

Anyways, to me - this is one of those RPG/FPS/TPA hybrids.
TPA = third-person action - since melee switches automatically to third-person action game w/ the camera behind you. FPS = First Person Shooter, since shooting in first-person which is why I also put the FPS tag in there.

So, I think my question is...is this also an "immersive sim"?

To me, it felt more Deus Ex-like and "immersive sim" than even say Deus Ex: Invisible War. IW dumbed-down a lot there - while the other main Deus Ex games (Deus Ex 1, DE: HR, and DE:MD) really did NOT.

There are often numerous classes and ways to play the game and finish quests in Bloodlines - similar to a Dishonored or Deus Ex. And if you're say Nosferatu and/or use a character focused on stealth - you can approach areas, entrances, and whatnot...a bit differently than other normal characters with straight-up combat (whether you go w/ say shooting, melee, or say combos of both.
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MartiusR: To be honest, I didn't even know earlier about such term as immersive sim. From what I understand though (reading the definition and typology), it's rather considered as sub-type for action games, which would suggest, more or less, that the main "core" of Bloodlines is (probably?) action game.

Kinda tricky example (Bloodlines), and for good reasons (you've listed a lot of them).

My general though is, that for better understanding I should try to find out, what is the "basic" piece of paper, and what are "add-ons" which are glued to the paper. Of course this approach will work well only if we've got some concrete form, while content can be easily "mixed" (e.g. mentioned Bloodlines - it has a form of first/third person action game, while content is a mix of action game (with many sub-genres, like stealth game, shooter etc), cRPG, somehow even adventure game etc.

And I know this approach may sound a bit technical, especially for someone who would prefer to give more significance to content than form. On the other hand - I believe that some sort of typology and definitions should be clear and (as much as possible) unambiguous, otherwise we're literally unable to discuss this matter ("this is fluent, everyone has opinion, none of them is better than other").
A lot of games that have qualified and been referred to as "immersive sim" include - Thief 1 + 2; Deus Ex series; Dishonored series; Prey 2017; and System Shock series.

Also, Weird West is another one that is up-and-coming - but isn't doing it from a usual perspective. It's using the isometric viewpoint.
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ResidentLeever: Story light RPGs tend to be Dungeon Crawlers.
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dtgreene: Counter-example: The original Dragon Quest. Also, early Ultima games.

In these games, you spend most of your time on the world map rather than in dungeons.

(Also, these games are open world, though in DQ you won't be able to get far at low levels (barring luck manipulation).)
These aren't really counter examples, more like transitional games into "real" RPGs. But I've only played DQ and a bit into Ultima 3. Part of the lack of story was also due to technical limitations and keeping the DC roots.
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dtgreene: Not much different than one with progression. Wander around, get into a random encounter, fight via menu-based turn-based combat, return to the map screen, and repeat. The only differences is that you wouldn't actually get anything from those fights.
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Leroux: Well, I would say that's all the difference required for most people to not consider it an RPG anymore, so good luck finding anyone who would subscribe to your definition of RPG as a game with random "menu-based turn based combat " and nothing else, no progress, no rewards. That's just as far removed from the reality of how the term is commonly used as saying an RPG is every game where you roleplay a character. A game with any kind of character progression (levels or stats or equipment or skills etc.) doesn't necessarily have to be an RPG, so it's not a defining criterion on its own, but any RPG in history that I can think of featured this element, and I suspect it's the one trait that actually unites them.

But be that as it may, it doesn't really matter whether you'd call it an RPG or not, in any case it sounds like it would be an incredibly boring game. ;)
yep some car games have progression or mechwarrior games ,are those rpgs we know they are not yet according to this def they are
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Mafwek: Guys, I offer foolproof method of deciding if something is an RPG or not:

If I say something is RPG, it's an RPG.

Here, we are done. You can now argue something else.
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Breja: Are you an RPG?
No. I am an attack helicopter.
Why Gran Turismo is an RPG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GYzPs3TX8w
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ResidentLeever: Why Gran Turismo is an RPG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GYzPs3TX8w
is that your channel?
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ResidentLeever: Why Gran Turismo is an RPG:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GYzPs3TX8w
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Orkhepaj: is that your channel?
Why do you ask?
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Orkhepaj: is that your channel?
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ResidentLeever: Why do you ask?
so few watched it,so i just guessed it is yours
btw it says it is rpg cause you can change some things , that doesnt make it rpg
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ResidentLeever: Why do you ask?
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Orkhepaj: so few watched it,so i just guessed it is yours
btw it says it is rpg cause you can change some things , that doesnt make it rpg
It's not, I saw it via resonant arc's discord channel and it just came to mind right now. I wasn't being serious.
Is Diablo more enjoyable if it's an RPG than if it isn't?
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PetrusOctavianus: Is Diablo more enjoyable if it's an RPG than if it isn't?
No matter what Diablo's considered, I really like Diablo 1+2.
3's good too; namely after the ROS update and expansion, it got good.

But I do mostly prefer D2 out of the Diablo club.

Also really liked Torchlight 1; and loved Torchlight 2.
Post edited August 13, 2020 by MysterD
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Orkhepaj: yep some car games have progression or mechwarrior games ,are those rpgs we know they are not yet according to this def they are
According to which definition? Definitely not according to what I wrote, if you read carefully.

"RPGs need top have a progression system" ≠ "All games with progression systems are RPGs"
Post edited August 13, 2020 by Leroux
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Orkhepaj: yep some car games have progression or mechwarrior games ,are those rpgs we know they are not yet according to this def they are
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Leroux: According to which definition? Definitely not according to what I wrote, if you read carefully.
the guy's you commented